packfanfb Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Arthur Penske said: At this point, part of me doesn't want Burns to weigh in at 240 or better at the combine. If he does, probably not a chance in hell he's still there at 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, pacman5252 said: Derp, nobody is arguing taking a kicker at 12/30. That is a complete strawman. People have brought up Hock, Metcalf, White at 12. They are all (depending on medicals) legitimate blue chip prospects. I'd have no problem taking one of those 3 over a 235/240 pound edge defender if that is what the team decided. I like the edge prospects and would be happy with the big 3 (Allen/Polite/Burns), but Burns/Polite are pretty physically risky prospects (we saw a similar undersized rusher drop to the second round after getting top 5 hype last year in Landry... maybe we are overvaluing). The same at 30. People have brought up guards/wrs/S (still valuable positions, not LT/DE/Corner, but not fricken kicker). Likely all the top edges will be off the board and we could get a real starting level prospect over a development edge guy. Derp? You're one not getting the point. If you'd consider taking an ILB, WR, TE, IOL at 12, the comparison is the question of when would you consider taking a great kicker. Don't give me a derp when you can't understand the simile. Taking an ILB at 12 is like taking a kicker at 30 or high in the second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Derp? You're one not getting the point. If you'd consider taking an ILB, WR, TE, IOL at 12, the comparison is the question of when would you consider taking a great kicker. Don't give me a derp when you can't understand the simile. Taking an ILB at 12 is like taking a kicker at 30 or high in the second. No it's not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snackattack Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: I don't think Elite and Good are too general. I presented, essentially, 6 tiers: Elite, Great, Good, Average, below average, bad. If non-premium is elite, there better not be a great premium position. Tier 1 Tier 2 Tier 3 That's the same thing I've said. If there are only tier 3 premium positions available but there is a Tier 1 non-premium, I take the non-premium, sure. If there's a Tier 2 non-premium and a Tier 3 premium, yeah, I take the Premium. This also neglects the possibility for a trade down, which, at 12th overall, gives you extreme value, and likely another first round pick in 2020, which means two Tier Three players or better opposed to one Tier 2 player. this rationale does not take into account that big boards that teams put together for draft day already take positional value into account, which i'm pretty sure they do (cwood definitely thinks so). if you are dropping down two tiers to select a lower ranked premium player (already ranked with positional value in mind) then you are double dipping on the positional decrements. outpost31 might do this, but i doubt NFL teams would. This is why teams should draft based on their tiering. trading down isn't a bad idea depending on how the board falls, but it shouldn't be a given that you trade down if you have only non-premium players available in tier 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snackattack Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Taking an ILB at 12 is like taking a kicker at 30 or high in the second. come on alan, i like you but this is totally arbitrary. edit: sorry, can i call you alan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Penske Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 52 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: It fits in the argument though. It's extremely fitting in a discussion on positional value. What would it take for you to draft a kicker? 9/10 on kicks from 60 yards or more, 65/70 on kicks between 50 and 60 yards and 98% on kicks within 49 yards? That would be the greatest kicker prospect ever. That's a generational talent. It's still a kicker. How valuable is a kicker? Same thing applies to ILB/WR/TE/IOL. How great a prospect does it have to be to use a pick higher than you should on the position? In relation to White, is he even the best ILB prospect in the past 5 years? Seems to me he's just the best in the class and that he's not some Lewis/Kuechly prospect. Seems to me he's just the best in the class. So... If he's not a generational talent, why are we talking about him at 12th overall? If we were talking about him at 24th overall, sure, valid discussion. But 12th overall? 28 minutes ago, pacman5252 said: Derp, nobody is arguing taking a kicker at 12/30. That is a complete strawman Yeah, that's a big reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Packerraymond said: No it's not Fine. I'll amend it: The current makeup of the Green Bay Packers, heading into the 2019 season, taking an ILB/IOL/WR/TE 12th overall is like the same Green Bay Packers taking a kicker at the end of the second round or early in the third round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Penske Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Outpost31 said: Fine. I'll amend it: The current makeup of the Green Bay Packers, heading into the 2019 season, taking an ILB/IOL/WR/TE 12th overall is like the same Green Bay Packers taking a kicker at the end of the second round or early in the third round. Still not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Arthur Penske said: Still not even close. Closer than you're willing to admit, and you and the other guy still don't effing get it because neither of you are capable of admitting that certain positions you should not take at certain spots due to positional value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Penske Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Closer than you're willing to admit, and you and the other guy still don't effing get it because neither of you are capable of admitting that certain positions you should not take at certain spots due to positional value. Oh really? I'd never take a kicker before the 6th. How's that for starters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Arthur Penske said: Oh really? I'd never take a kicker before the 6th. How's that for starters? Dogmatist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcon14 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 18 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Fine. I'll amend it: The current makeup of the Green Bay Packers, heading into the 2019 season, taking an ILB/IOL/WR/TE 12th overall is like the same Green Bay Packers taking a kicker at the end of the second round or early in the third round. I mean, I'll all about positional value, but it's still not close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman5252 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Derp? You're one not getting the point. If you'd consider taking an ILB, WR, TE, IOL at 12, the comparison is the question of when would you consider taking a great kicker. Don't give me a derp when you can't understand the simile. Taking an ILB at 12 is like taking a kicker at 30 or high in the second. no it isn't. If there's a blue chip talent at those positions (which realistically at least at ILB, WR, and TE there could be) vs legitimately questionable edge prospects (235lb Brian Burns, 240 polite), you can argue for the Metcalf, White, or Hock at 12. I'm not saying I would, but I definitely s legit argument. Between 2006-2018 there has been 1 kicker taken in the first 2 rounds. There are usually multiple wrs, 1-2 tes, and 1-2 guards drafted in round 1. The kicker argument is a legit strawman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcon14 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Arthur Penske said: PFF adjusted pressures to a % of pass rush snaps here: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1098670393487998976 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, pacman5252 said: no it isn't. If there's a blue chip talent at those positions (which realistically at least at ILB, WR, and TE there could be) vs legitimately questionable edge prospects (235lb Brian Burns, 240 polite), you can argue for the Metcalf, White, or Hock at 12. I'm not saying I would, but I definitely s legit argument Somebody needs to answer my question. Is Devin White even that generational or even decade prospect, or is he just the best prospect at the position in this draft? Is he even the undisputed best ILB prospect in the draft, or are there people suggesting Bush or the other one whose name I forgot are better? Because people seem to relent when saying positional value matters, but not if there's a generational talent. Is he that generational talent, and would he even crack the top ten of ILB prospects this decade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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