Packers Lions Post Game

[Pugger]

1 hour ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Aaron could solve a lot of the problems with this offense if he would just take what the defense is giving and keep that ball moving down the field.  McCarthy should be beating this into Aaron's head, but as we've seen many times before we get back into this pattern of trying to extend plays and then we get in trouble.    

And as I said in another thread McCarthy not taking control of this situation is a real problem IMO.   Every player, no matter how great they are, need coaching and guidance.  

[SSG]

6 minutes ago, Pugger said:

Yes, as good as Rodgers is his Achilles' Heel is he would rather go for the big play and these scramble drills rather than take what is underneath and keep drives alive.   It drives me crazy when it is 3rd and short and he goes for the long ball.  I also blame Mac and the QB position coach for not reigning this tendency of his in more, especially now with his bum knee.

It's a double edge sword.  That sort of improv is what makes him the GOAT in many eyes.  It's the improv that we seen on the last offensive play against Dallas in the playoffs 2 years ago..... If he'd "taken what was given" in that game we don't don't win the game in regulation.  

It's also annoying in games like Sunday's when we were banged up at WR and needed first downs more than huge plays.

[Pugger]

Just now, SSG said:

It's a double edge sword.  That sort of improv is what makes him the GOAT in many eyes.  It's the improv that we seen on the last offensive play against Dallas in the playoffs 2 years ago..... 

It's also annoying in games like Sunday's when we were banged up at WR and needed first downs more than huge plays.

Yup, the improv is what makes him special but with that bum knee he isn't as nimble enough to pull those kinds of plays off.

[Sasquatch]

I'm guessing Rodgers, Philbin, and MM talk about the need for AR to stick to the game plan, take what the defense gives you, get the ball out - don't take the sack, and move the chains.  I have a feeling, just my opinion, that Rodgers still hasn't knocked enough rust off since he hasn't really taken many live reps in over a full year.  He's defaulting to what he knows - his bread and butter - what made him great - because that's what's comfortable to him.  That, and his reads and reaction time are still slow from the rust of not playing, and from his hobbled knee.  It doesn't help when you see a guy like Brees hucking the ball all over the field on prime time, setting records and such, making what Rodgers used to do look easy.  I'm sure this is enticing for a guy like Rodgers, but he must get himself back into the game by managing himself and his expectations right now.  Get healthy, get back to knowing the speed of the game, and then go nuts.

Rodgers is smart, and I sense that he knows all of this and more.  Standing behind your center, in front of 300lb men ready to kill you, with 75,000 fans chanting your name, then suddenly it's go time - ball is snapped, you drop back, and within two seconds, you're still trying to process what the plan was, but that plan has gone to hell and you suddenly are back to improvising.  We're starting slow, because Rodgers is starting slow.  He's starting slow because of all the aforementioned conditions.  Will he get back to running this game at full speed with a crisp, clear mind and strong body?  I hope so, I think so.  When he does, it could be good times again.   

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, craig said:

Thanks much, Alex.  This is really helpful and informative.  Much appreciated.  

I admit I'm not quite sure what exactly to take from it, though?  I've gotsome dumb, ignorant, sincere, and naive Q:  what determines whether a Jones snap will be a pass-blocking snap?  I'm mostly not asking about your post-snap analysis, but rather pre-snap....  I don't actually know.... 

1. After the fact, do you count a "pass-blocking" snap as one in which he actually does some pass-blocking?  Or any snap in which he *might* have ended up pass-blocking, had things gone somewhat differently, even if he doesn't actually end up blocking anybody? 
2. We know that often MM sends in a play, but Rodgers changes things contingent on the defensive look.   
3. Likewise I assume what Jones does is contingent both on pre-snap adjustments, and also contingent on post-snap stuff;  like whether the o-line picks everybody up, or whether rusher(s) are winning and coming through?  Whether defenders showing possible blitz actually blitz, or drop back.   
4. So, does a "pass-blocking-snap" only include snaps where he actually pass-blocked?  Or any snap where there was a contingent possibility that he might have needed to pass block, even though frequently that ends up not happening?  
5. Maybe I'm trying to ask whether MM's play call pre-determines whether it's a "pass-blocking-snap"?  So that the fact that he's had very few of them reflects that they do not want to involve him in play-calls where the back might have even contingent pass-blocking responsibilities?  Or is it possible that he's had plenty of snaps where pass-blocking might have been a contingent thing, but the contingencies only occasionally ended up in a pass-blocking play for him? 
6.  
7. What % of pass-blocking plays to other backs typically get?  5 pass-blocking-plays out of 69 snaps is <10%; is that flukishly low?  Are Williams and Ty way higher, like 50% and 40% or something way different?  Or is the "pass-blocking-contingency" thing such that even with a guy like Williams, <25% of his snaps have the contingencies play out such that he actually ends up pass-blocking? 
8.  
9. I ask because I always assume a RB is primarily a blocker.  Is it possible that I'm actually over-emphasizing the blocking component, and that ability to gain yards with the ball is more relatively important than I realize?  
10.  
11. Is it possible that Jones doesn't pass block as much because he's a better runner?  IN other words, do defenses read "Jones-in-backfield" as a "run" key, so they don't blitz as much?  Or, because Jones is a good runner, is Rodgers more likely to actually give him the ball because he thinks he's got a chance to get some yards?  Whereas with same set and williams, Rodgers might be more likely to check over to a pass play, for which Williams would end up pass-blocking?  

Too many questions, but it's really interesting to me as I try to learn more.  Thanks for your details!

1. I counted any snap that he pass blocked. I even gave him one where I think the LB kinda tackled him as he was getting into his route.

2. Protection calls get communicated with the play change. When Rodgers gives the alternative play, the protection call is usually included. Any alterations to the protection that are called at the line, the back needs to be listening for.

3. Part of the protection call that is called is whether the back is doing something called scat protection. In that case, instead of taking on a blitzing linebacker, he'll slip into the flats to offer Rodgers a target rather than running him into a linebacker and trying to hold him up.

4. If Rodgers wants to pull Jones out of scat protection, he can do that. If Jones is being asked to block based on the call, but there's no one to block, he'll slip out into the flat.

5. Jones lack of reps is indicative of the play calling. The coaching staff would rather have him in scat protection than blocking. 

6. Williams blocks about 35 perfect of his passing reps. Montgomery is about 20 percent. They both block more than Jones, very in line with their blocking abilities. Coaches try and use those guys to their strengths.

7. There's not a ton of blocking reps among the backs. It's predominantly to cover blitzes rather than standard 4 man rushes. You see most of your blitzes on pressure downs. To an extent you know what downs you will need the backs in protection.

8. I think that's everything you asked. Let me know if you're still curious.

[Leader]

YAC

Somebody needs to remind AR what that acronym stands for - show him replay of Cobb's 70+ yard TD reception/run against CHI - and tell him to get the damn ball out of his hands.

It's called: 'THROW THE BALL!"

[Norm]

18 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Jones had 17 snaps against the Redskins

He had 6 carries against the Redskins

He had 2 pass blocking snaps against the Redskins. The last two snaps of the game with 1:40 and 0:54 seconds left on the clock respectively.

He was in on 9 passing (or QB run plays) where he wasn't blocking. 

He had 22 snaps against the Lions

He had 1 pass blocking snap against the Lions.

He had 29 snaps against the Bills

He had 2 pass blocking snaps against the Bills. The one in the 3rd quarter where some believe he gave up a sack. One in the 4th quarter on the second to last drive on a play action read against the blitz.

I've got 5 pass blocking plays in three games. 

Aaron Jones doesn't pass block.

 

 

 

Nice. It was so obviously wrong but I didn't think that far off.

 

Fwiw,I obviously don't like that dude just by his tweets but those are numbers he's pulling from someone else. It's not like he compiled them. Afaik. 

Maybe his numbers had him at 42 TOTAL snaps and it didn't include the last game and he was 100% then?

[Leader]

I seems - or I feel we went thru something similar with AR a few years back - not that far back - the RELAX season when we ripped off six straight second half wins? AR seemed hesitant to release the ball and uncharacteristically inaccurate with it. It seemed he was missing regular/easy stuff. Thats when they switched to the up tempo / quick passing game - the net result being AR needed to decide based on pre snap looks where to go with the ball - and get it there quickly.

Suddenly first downs started piling up, TOP swung to our favor considerably and our D started getting turnovers against an offense that had less option to run it.

Throw the ball AR. You've got great accuracy stats. Trust yourself - chuck it - and let your WRs do their jobs.

 

[AlexGreen#20]

47 minutes ago, Norm said:

Nice. It was so obviously wrong but I didn't think that far off.

 

Fwiw,I obviously don't like that dude just by his tweets but those are numbers he's pulling from someone else. It's not like he compiled them. Afaik. 

Maybe his numbers had him at 42 TOTAL snaps and it didn't include the last game and he was 100% then?

He probably liked at PFF, saw he had 42 snaps where a pass occurred and that's his number.

[Norm]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

He probably liked at PFF, saw he had 42 snaps where a pass occurred and that's his number.

That makes the most sense. The funny part is he thought he was like destroying some argument against Jones and using complete bull**** data. You could call him out but he's probably the kind that just blocks you lol

[TheOnlyThing]

Andy Herman‏ @SconnieSports

PFF’s pass blocking scores for Packers’ running backs:

Aaron Jones - 82.5

Jamaal Williams - 76.7

Montgomery - 69.1

6:02 PM - 9 Oct 2018

PFF's number may, of course, be skewed, wrong, lack context, etc.

However, I really don't think the principal reason Aaron Jones is not playing more snaps is because of his purported pass blocking deficiencies (though I certainly don't know for sure that is not the principal reason).

I've thought the distribution snaps the past 3 games has had more to do with (1) MM wanting to get Williams and Ty snaps as well and (2) concerns about whether Jones could withstand the punishment.

[AlexGreen#20]

4 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

Andy Herman‏ @SconnieSports

PFF’s pass blocking scores for Packers’ running backs:

Aaron Jones - 82.5

Jamaal Williams - 76.7

Montgomery - 69.1

6:02 PM - 9 Oct 2018

PFF's number may, of course, be skewed, wrong, lack context, etc.

However, I really don't think the principal reason Aaron Jones is not playing more snaps is because of his purported pass blocking deficiencies (though I certainly don't know for sure that is not the principal reason).

I've thought the distribution snaps the past 3 games has had more to do with (1) MM wanting to get Williams and Ty snaps as well and (2) concerns about whether Jones could withstand the punishment.

He's had 5 pass blocking snaps this year. Rodgers has been sacked on 2 of them with one of them likely being Jones' fault. 

He's getting pulled off the field on 3rd and long to medium (which has basically been all our 3rd downs this year it seems like [don't quote me on this, I haven't looked up the numbers]) even on "his" drives.

If it isn't pass blocking, it looks like it's perceived 3rd down value.

[Norm]

6 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

He's had 5 pass blocking snaps this year. Rodgers has been sacked on 2 of them with one of them likely being Jones' fault. 

He's getting pulled off the field on 3rd and long to medium (which has basically been all our 3rd downs this year it seems like [don't quote me on this, I haven't looked up the numbers]) even on "his" drives.

If it isn't pass blocking, it looks like it's perceived 3rd down value.

Andy actually posted the counts right after. So I'll give him props for being transparent

[Gopackgonerd]

I think they just need to use Jones on first and second down more.Williams and Monty can handle 3rd down. I've always thought that was the best rotation. 

[Shanedorf]

1 hour ago, Gopackgonerd said:

I think they just need to use Jones on first and second down more.Williams and Monty can handle 3rd down. I've always thought that was the best rotation. 

But that's not how the Packers ( and other teams) do it.
They sub RBs for an entire series - so they can go fast and keep the D from subbing. That's why MM is always harping on "being a 3 down back" ; he wants the ability to play any of them for an entire drive. Its not the only rotation strategy they use, but its definitely an important one for an up tempo offense