Is it too early to focus on the 19 draft?

[Thaiphoon]

46 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Yeah, like once a half. They really don't that much. I think Michael Thomas had the most catches in the NFL under 10 yards.

Gronk and Eddleman are Brady’s top weapons. They don't get that many passes thrown to them 10 plus yards.

Eddleman, 10 recs, 141 yards, a 14.1-yard average for his MVP Super Bowl performance. Most of those receptions on passes 10 yards or less where he got yac.

Like, I don't know why this is still a thing. If a QBs playmakers aren't getting open deep, then they're going to throw medium short, all QBs do it. It's only Redskins fans who I see complain constantly though. 

Now it's the anti-Alex club, from 2015-2017 it was the anti-Kirkers, 2010 it was was the Anti-McNabbers and before that it was the Jason Campbell haters who had one good WR his entire 4 years as our starter..

Interestingly enough, you’re in all of those clubs but the anti-Kirkers.

Yes. And yet even I acknowledge his shortcomings and didn't want to sign him after his last year (too much $$). 

I don't regard Brady as the GOAT. I regard him as a guy who dinks and dunks a lot. But he also attacks the defense deep (15-20 yards or more). 

With Smith, he's done it his whole career. When he was here it was obvious. He would look to his 1st read. Then almost immediately dump it off short. And he did it regardless of circumstance in the game. With other QBs who actually will take what a defense gives BUT ALSO dictate to the defense, they will try throwing long. It's no mystery why our defensive opponents suddenly got called for more PI and Defensive Holding after Smith went down. It's because we were attacking more downfield.

I think both Brees and Brady are great QBs. You're right. They both throw a lot to RB's as that is part of the offense. BUT...I also watch them throw the ball downfield and attack defenses. Alex...doesn't. He just doesn't. Or more accurately, he didn't on a consistent basis here and he didn't in his career. Oh, sorry. He did ONE year... 2017. When he had Hunt as his RB, Hill as his WR1 and Kelce as his TE.

So throwing medium short when the deep routes are covered is fine for me. When all you're doing is dumping it off 5 yards after your first read and not ever threatening the Cover 2? That's a problem for me. And it's why our passing game struggled this past year under Alex. 

[naptownskinsfan]

Most long-term fans remember the glory days of Gibbs 1.0 and the Coryell offense.  Lots of running the ball, but intermediate to long playaction down the field.  Things change in the NFL.  The spread offenses have become king.  Instead of rushing the ball 20-plus times a game from one running back, most teams are lucky to run the ball 25 times total.  Instead, the short, high percentage passes have become the new rushing attack, designed to move the chains steadily down the field and rely on yards after the catch.  

Why then, are there less anti-Kirk Cousins folks than the rest?  Simple, because at that point, Gruden's offense, specifically with play-action, showed a lot of influence from the Coryell offense.   At that time, you also had the personnel to get downfield extremely effectively.  You had Desean Jackson, one of the best deep threats at the time who could beat anyone in a foot race.  You had Jordan Reed who could make catches down the field and influence matchups.  Then you had Pierre Garcon who did his best work cutting in and out and help getting some of the steady gains (instead of runs) which allowed for the playaction downfield to work.  

Alex Smith didn't have those kind of playmakers at WR to work with.  Surprisingly, Jordan Reed played in all of the games for Alex Smith, but I honestly feel that, while he isn't a shell of his former self, all of the injuries have taken a toll on him.  Given what we gave up to get Alex Smith, and the amount of money that we paid him afterwards, Alex Smith needed to bring the offense up a level on his own, but was unable to do that.  He went from having Tyreeq Hill, Travis Kelce and Kareem Hunt to no wide receivers, a beat up Jordan Reed and an aging Adrian Peterson.  Was it really all that fair to expect a 34 year old to be that kind of QB and have that kind of impact when he's never really had it before?  He's a game manager, and we paid him to be "the guy" like Tom Brady or Drew Brees who can take control of games in an instant  In a sense, he was set up to fail from the start with expectations and talent level of the roster.

[turtle28]

8 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Most long-term fans remember the glory days of Gibbs 1.0 and the Coryell offense.  Lots of running the ball, but intermediate to long playaction down the field.  Things change in the NFL.  The spread offenses have become king.  Instead of rushing the ball 20-plus times a game from one running back, most teams are lucky to run the ball 25 times total.  Instead, the short, high percentage passes have become the new rushing attack, designed to move the chains steadily down the field and rely on yards after the catch.  

Why then, are there less anti-Kirk Cousins folks than the rest?  Simple, because at that point, Gruden's offense, specifically with play-action, showed a lot of influence from the Coryell offense.   At that time, you also had the personnel to get downfield extremely effectively.  You had Desean Jackson, one of the best deep threats at the time who could beat anyone in a foot race.  You had Jordan Reed who could make catches down the field and influence matchups.  Then you had Pierre Garcon who did his best work cutting in and out and help getting some of the steady gains (instead of runs) which allowed for the playaction downfield to work.  

Alex Smith didn't have those kind of playmakers at WR to work with.  Surprisingly, Jordan Reed played in all of the games for Alex Smith, but I honestly feel that, while he isn't a shell of his former self, all of the injuries have taken a toll on him.  Given what we gave up to get Alex Smith, and the amount of money that we paid him afterwards, Alex Smith needed to bring the offense up a level on his own, but was unable to do that.  He went from having Tyreeq Hill, Travis Kelce and Kareem Hunt to no wide receivers, a beat up Jordan Reed and an aging Adrian Peterson.  Was it really all that fair to expect a 34 year old to be that kind of QB and have that kind of impact when he's never really had it before?  He's a game manager, and we paid him to be "the guy" like Tom Brady or Drew Brees who can take control of games in an instant  In a sense, he was set up to fail from the start with expectations and talent level of the roster.

I'm with you on most of this, definitely the overall premise that Alex didn't have the playmakers that he had in Kansas City and in 2015 & 16 when Cousins had Djax, Garcon, a healthy Crowder and Reed in the passing of game. 

I still say that if Crowder, CT & PRich had stayed healthy that our passing game would have developed over the season into average to good but, you simply struggle to function as an offense if you lose 3 of your top 5 receiving options (Crowder, CT, PRich, Reed & VD) w/in the first two months of the season.

We will never know the answer to that sadly though, instead we have to hope this year that that group of 4 playmakers and possibly an additional WR or minus Crowder for Colt and/or a rookie.

I also don’t think we overpaid for Alex. His contract is far less than what the top 5 paid QBs have been signing for over the last several years. I just think things would have gotten better for our passing game as the season went on and especially this year if those playmakers had stayed healthy and especially this year.

Sadly, as I said before we’ll never know. Here's to Colt! I think Colt can duplicate what Alex was doing for us last year and possibly be more efficient - especially if Crowder is back and we have more luck with injuries - but Colt is definitely going to have more turnovers. Colt has some Kirk in him, a few times a game he’ll make a bonehead decision despite most of the time him making the right decision.

[naptownskinsfan]

9 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I'm with you on most of this, definitely the overall premise that Alex didn't have the playmakers that he had in Kansas City and in 2015 & 16 when Cousins had Djax, Garcon, a healthy Crowder and Reed in the passing of game. 

I still say that if Crowder, CT & PRich had stayed healthy that our passing game would have developed over the season into average to good but, you simply struggle to function as an offense if you lose 3 of your top 5 receiving options (Crowder, CT, PRich, Reed & VD) w/in the first two months of the season.

We will never know the answer to that sadly though, instead we have to hope this year that that group of 4 playmakers and possibly an additional WR or minus Crowder for Colt and/or a rookie.

I also don’t think we overpaid for Alex. His contract is far less than what the top 5 paid QBs have been signing for over the last several years. I just think things would have gotten better for our passing game as the season went on and especially this year if those playmakers had stayed healthy and especially this year.

Sadly, as I said before we’ll never know. Here's to Colt! I think Colt can duplicate what Alex was doing for us last year and possibly be more efficient - especially if Crowder is back and we have more luck with injuries - but Colt is definitely going to have more turnovers. Colt has some Kirk in him, a few times a game he’ll make a bonehead decision despite most of the time him making the right decision.

But again, you are counting on Thompson, Richardson and Reed to stay healthy, which they've proven they can not do in their careers with one injury or another.  Crowder is also a slot receiver, and I'm not so sure he would've made a difference on the outside where we desperately need help.  

We overpaid for Alex Smith.  $74 million guaranteed for a game manager.  At $74 million, this better be the guy who can at least elevate the talent around him.  Any more than that, and they need to be Brady, Brees or Rodgers and be able to take control of the game.  

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

But again, you are counting on Thompson, Richardson and Reed to stay healthy, which they've proven they can not do in their careers with one injury or another.  Crowder is also a slot receiver, and I'm not so sure he would've made a difference on the outside where we desperately need help.  

We overpaid for Alex Smith.  $74 million guaranteed for a game manager.  At $74 million, this better be the guy who can at least elevate the talent around him.  Any more than that, and they need to be Brady, Brees or Rodgers and be able to take control of the game.  

I’m not counting on CT, PRich, and Reed to play every game, but am counting on them to not miss half the season again. 

Disagree that a healthy Crowder doesn’t make a difference, the passing offense is more efficient when our QBs are hitting him, CT & Reed in the Quick game and then our plymakers take that 5 or 10 yard pass and turn it into a big play or even TD.

That’s what I think most fans miss about these 3, they’re game changers. Unlike Doctson most of the time and the guys who replaced Crowder and CT, every time Crowder & CT touch the ball they are a threat to take it to the house, that’s special. Also, Reed runs well after the catch and has the best hands on the team and is an amazing route runner.

Again, I don’t expect these 3 to play every game, but I do expect 12-14 games out of each of them instead of 9 for Crowder, Reed did play 13 games this year but CT again only played 10 games.

[offbyone]

Reed should be traded while we can still get something for him even if it is only a mid round pick.

[turtle28]

On 11/14/2018 at 3:33 PM, PARROTHEAD said:

I think its a good 80% chance hes around by our 1st pick. 25% chance hes there in the second. Which if we could bundle a 3rd with our 2nd and move to the top of the 2nd to nab him. Thatd be great.

I want to hear that Duke qb is coming out. He could help move Clayton down. But I have a feeling he will stay in school.

Umm what? 100% chance Thorson is there by our 1st pick. 50% chance he’s there by our 2nd round pick. 25% chance he’s there by our natural 3rd. 10% chance he’s there by our 3rd round comp aka the Cousins pick. Thorson is a good prospect but there’s 0 chance he’s a 1st rounder, Jones is a borderline 1st rounder. I don’t understand the love for this guy, he’s good but not great and that’s in college. He goes to the pros that’s a projection that at best he’s average.

[turtle28]

4 hours ago, offbyone said:

Reed should be traded while we can still get something for him even if it is only a mid round pick.

Cowboys need a Tight End. Makes perfect sense. Redskins fans don’t think Reed is good anymore so let’s trade him to our greatest rival and find out. You cool with that?

[PARROTHEAD]

7 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Umm what? 100% chance Thorson is there by our 1st pick. 50% chance he’s there by our 2nd round pick. 25% chance he’s there by our natural 3rd. 10% chance he’s there by our 3rd round comp aka the Cousins pick. Thorson is a good prospect but there’s 0 chance he’s a 1st rounder, Jones is a borderline 1st rounder. I don’t understand the love for this guy, he’s good but not great and that’s in college. He goes to the pros that’s a projection that at best he’s average.

Digging stuff up from November? When he followed with some pretty pitiful games...

[Thaiphoon]

7 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Cowboys need a Tight End. Makes perfect sense. Redskins fans don’t think Reed is good anymore so let’s trade him to our greatest rival and find out. You cool with that?

Only if they give us a 2nd. Otherwise I dont trade intra-division (no matter who it is).

Let him NOT play for them and take up.cap space and a roster spot

[PARROTHEAD]

On 11/9/2018 at 3:44 AM, turtle28 said:

You might be the only person who thinks that way. I’m not saying he’s destined to be an nfl great, but anyone who watches him can see he has more qualities of an nfl starting qb than the guys you’re comparing him too.

I’d say Grier is a more polished version of Josh Allen as a prospect. He’s big, athletic, has a big arm and is sneaky athletic. I wouldn’t take him in the top 10 - I think he’s more a late 1st or early 2nd round guy - but just like Josh Allen and every QB, he’ll get pushed up the draft boards to a QB needy team and probably go in the top 15, and maybe top 10.

He’s everything you look for in a starting pocket passing qb, and he’s a great leader. The one thing he has to work on is accuracy.

Maybe top 10? Really?

See how pointless it is to bring up old crap just to hear yourself talk?

[offbyone]

8 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Cowboys need a Tight End. Makes perfect sense. Redskins fans don’t think Reed is good anymore so let’s trade him to our greatest rival and find out. You cool with that?

Absolutely.  His career is waning and he is only healthy 8 games a year and rarely can practice.  He is a rare talent, but he does more harm than good at this point.  

But a lot of teams need a TE.  So obviously a division rival is not your first choice and if so they pay a premium.

[turtle28]

5 hours ago, offbyone said:

Absolutely.  His career is waning and he is only healthy 8 games a year and rarely can practice.  He is a rare talent, but he does more harm than good at this point.  

But a lot of teams need a TE.  So obviously a division rival is not your first choice and if so they pay a premium.

He goes to the Cowboys and I feel he gets to near all pro status. Thats just our luck that had stay healthy in Dal and he misses a month or a little more each year he's played in DC.

[offbyone]

6 hours ago, turtle28 said:

He goes to the Cowboys and I feel he gets to near all pro status. Thats just our luck that had stay healthy in Dal and he misses a month or a little more each year he's played in DC.

 

Yeah, he might have one more big season in him, but I think that is about it and then the injury streak will continue again.  You can't really believe he has lots of healthy years left.

So lets say he has a healthy year next year, who do we have to throw to him?   I just think this is the last year we can get anything for him.

[e16bball]

9 hours ago, offbyone said:

So lets say he has a healthy year next year, who do we have to throw to him?   I just think this is the last year we can get anything for him.

In about a game and a quarter with Colt McCoy as the QB, he had 9 catches for 95 yards and a TD. In fact, in the 6 games they’ve played together (in 3 of which McCoy actually played less than a half), Colt has targeted Reed 39 times for 31 completions and over 300 yards.

Bad/below-average QBs (especially the ones with weak arms) often throw very frequently to TEs. Colt throws to TEs significantly more than the average QB — Ben Watson was by far his most targeted Browns receiver and Reed has been by a wide margin his most targeted Redskin. 

If you trade Reed, it should be because you get a return that — coupled with the injury risk — makes you feel okay about giving up on a guy who is clearly one of the top 5-7 receiving TEs in the league. For me, that’s probably a 3rd round pick. From Dallas, their 2nd round pick.