Random Ravens Thoughts: New Forum Edition

[santiagomn8]

3 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

I'm actually unsure of whether Roman taking the Stanford job is a good thing. The best thing that could happen is Harbaugh gets fired and the Ravens bring in Payton or Steichen or whomever and implement a cutting edge offense. 

But if Roman leaves voluntarily, then Harbaugh will bring in some nobody and the offense will get worse. No up-and-coming offensive mind will take the Ravens OC job if they are already working under one of the better offensive minds. Roman is the best Harbaugh can do. 

I actually agree with this for the most part. But the way I look at it it’s a win-win for us. We will definitely promote from with in no doubt most likely James Urban but maybe someone else gets it or maybe even Urban and we strike lightning in a bottle. Or worst case scenario whoever we promote is terrible and that could possibly be the last straw and get Harbaugh fired which again I love the guy but his time is up. It’s been up for awhile in my opinion but it’s time to move on. He would be great in Houston or Washington a place to bring some credibility and stability to a franchise and get them started down the right path

[Ray Reed]

Harbaugh gets way too much flack in here about his coordinators.

Cam Cameron ran an offense that was good enough for a rookie QB from Delaware to go to 5 straight postseasons, and when things got stale he fired him mid-season when the team was like 9-3 and promoted Caldwell who ended up being so successful that postseason run that he was hired as a HC the following year. He hired Kubiak in 2014 who was so successful here that he became a HC the following year. Trestman was exactly what people complained about Harbaugh not going (“opening up” the passing offense) even though he ended up as a miss. Mornhinweg was fired for Roman as soon as Lamar came in and was probably the best OC choice possible for early on in Lamar’s career and who set numerous offensive records here.

On defense he kept Rex until he became a HC. Mattison was meh but he got the shaft for Dean Pees whose defense won a SB holding Peyton Manning to 21 offensive points in 6 quarters in Denver and Tom Brady to 13 points in Foxboro. When he retired Harbaugh hired Pagano who was so successful at DC he became a HC a year later (noticing a trend?). Spagnoulo was a (rare) miss but that was dealt with almost immediately and then Harbaugh promoted Wink (which EVERYONE in here bished about because blah blah nepotism Harbaugh’s an idiot) who proceeded to have the #1 defense in the NFL from 2018-2020 until the wheels completely fell off in 2021 - after which he was fired.

There are a lot of appropriate complaints about Harbaugh. Consistently hiring/promoting coordinators who ultimately do well enough to either a. get HC gigs elsewhere or b. lead units to regular season and postseason success has always been a weird, weird one that people have. I think some people need to look around the league at some of the other coordinator situations the past decade +.

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

I'm actually unsure of whether Roman taking the Stanford job is a good thing. The best thing that could happen is Harbaugh gets fired and the Ravens bring in Payton or Steichen or whomever and implement a cutting edge offense. 

But if Roman leaves voluntarily, then Harbaugh will bring in some nobody and the offense will get worse. No up-and-coming offensive mind will take the Ravens OC job if they are already working under one of the better offensive minds. Roman is the best Harbaugh can do. 

Meh. Not a fan of Payton. Dude had a HOF in Brees for most of his career and turned that into multiple average teams and one ring.

I’m not against Harbaugh getting another shot with another OC.

I think a young up and coming offensive coach could find himself within a situation where he would find plenty of creative freedom offensively, they’ve got a young former MVP talent to work with, and if the offense excels in the passing attack they’d see legitimate opportunity around the league to become a HC.

Whats more such a coach can learn from under a seasoned successful coach about how to be more than an offensive mind and be that CEO style of coach.

But that’s just my opinion. I will say that Harbaugh isn’t as passionate as he used to be, so bonus points if he could add a young fiery type to the fray as well. 

[SalvadorsDeli]

Unless we make it past the divisional round I'm not really enthused about bringing Harbaugh back whether Lamar re-signs or not. This team is 100% built in Harbaugh's image, including everything he has and has not asked of Roman as his OC, with the ideal QB to pursue his run-first, clock-control vision of football. If he can't crack the code or at least get us in the real Super Bowl contention conversation under these circumstances it's just never going to happen again with him.

I know we hit lightning in a bottle a decade ago but If a quick playoff exit is his ceiling now with a top tier QB now then there's no reason to keep running it back hoping for different results. The best thing you can say about Harbaugh is that you can't really bottom out under him because he can organize/coach up a low-talent team and keep them competitive.  But it increasingly feels like the corollary is true where there's something missing that really stops him from getting an already competitive team to fulfill its upper potential. 

Either we're starting over with boatload of draft picks after trading Lamar and it's an ideal time to turn over at HC anyways, or we still have Lamar and need to make a change at HC to make an credible attempt at evolving on offense and as a team that goes beyond hiring Keith Williams and promising better footwork at the WR position. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by SalvadorsDeli

[AngusMcFife]

13 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Meh. Not a fan of Payton. Dude had a HOF in Brees for most of his career and turned that into multiple average teams and one ring.

I’m not against Harbaugh getting another shot with another OC.

I think a young up and coming offensive coach could find himself within a situation where he would find plenty of creative freedom offensively, they’ve got a young former MVP talent to work with, and if the offense excels in the passing attack they’d see legitimate opportunity around the league to become a HC.

Whats more such a coach can learn from under a seasoned successful coach about how to be more than an offensive mind and be that CEO style of coach.

But that’s just my opinion. I will say that Harbaugh isn’t as passionate as he used to be, so bonus points if he could add a young fiery type to the fray as well. 

I don't really think your scenario is realistic. Coaching is a fraternity, they like working with their buddies. 1) Any up and coming OC is not going to leave his HC to work for Harbaugh, who he doesn't have a relationship with. 2), it is very tricky to hire an up and coming non-OC (such as QB coach) as an OC, because they can't take their friends with them (teams can block coaches from other teams if the position is not coordinator). 3) Hiring a QB coach as OC is very risky because he has no track record of calling plays.  

Given Lamar seems iffy about resigning here, do you really think it'll help our cause to bring in a guy with no track record of running an offense? Lamar is watching lesser QBs like Tua and Hurts flourish under these new offensive minds, he is going to want someone to unlock him. Hiring someone with no track record of success is not going to help Lamar sign here. 

If we want to bring in a new offensive mind, it has to be on the HC level. Established OCs won't take the job, and hiring QB coaches as OC is too risky and tough because they can't bring along a support staff. 

This is why I would support hiring an offensive mind as HC (like Payton or Reich), or an up and coming OC as HC (like Steichen). Any other measure is too risky and we could alienate Lamar by not demonstrating a commitment to developing to the offense. 

[AngusMcFife]

14 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

Harbaugh gets way too much flack in here about his coordinators.

Cam Cameron ran an offense that was good enough for a rookie QB from Delaware to go to 5 straight postseasons, and when things got stale he fired him mid-season when the team was like 9-3 and promoted Caldwell who ended up being so successful that postseason run that he was hired as a HC the following year. He hired Kubiak in 2014 who was so successful here that he became a HC the following year. Trestman was exactly what people complained about Harbaugh not going (“opening up” the passing offense) even though he ended up as a miss. Mornhinweg was fired for Roman as soon as Lamar came in and was probably the best OC choice possible for early on in Lamar’s career and who set numerous offensive records here.

On defense he kept Rex until he became a HC. Mattison was meh but he got the shaft for Dean Pees whose defense won a SB holding Peyton Manning to 21 offensive points in 6 quarters in Denver and Tom Brady to 13 points in Foxboro. When he retired Harbaugh hired Pagano who was so successful at DC he became a HC a year later (noticing a trend?). Spagnoulo was a (rare) miss but that was dealt with almost immediately and then Harbaugh promoted Wink (which EVERYONE in here bished about because blah blah nepotism Harbaugh’s an idiot) who proceeded to have the #1 defense in the NFL from 2018-2020 until the wheels completely fell off in 2021 - after which he was fired.

There are a lot of appropriate complaints about Harbaugh. Consistently hiring/promoting coordinators who ultimately do well enough to either a. get HC gigs elsewhere or b. lead units to regular season and postseason success has always been a weird, weird one that people have. I think some people need to look around the league at some of the other coordinator situations the past decade +.

DCs is not really a question. Right now the concern is offensive coordinator. We have a franchise QB who is iffy about signing a long term deal with us. It is crucial that the Ravens do the best thing for the offense in order to encourage Lamar to resign. 

A couple notes:

Caldwell's 2013 season with the Ravens was abysmal. 
Trestman in 2015 was horrible. 
Morninweg was okay
Roman was great to start but is now doing fine (in my estimation). 

So Harbaugh is not really developing OCs, and is able to hire veteran retreads. In this day and age, we need to find a fresh, cutting edge offensive mind that can entice Lamar to want to stay here. Harbaugh has shown no capacity ever to lure someone like that to be OC here. If Roman leaves, I would bet that his replacement will be worse (unless Harbaugh is removed). 

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

DCs is not really a question. Right now the concern is offensive coordinator. We have a franchise QB who is iffy about signing a long term deal with us. It is crucial that the Ravens do the best thing for the offense in order to encourage Lamar to resign. 

A couple notes:

Caldwell's 2013 season with the Ravens was abysmal. 
Trestman in 2015 was horrible. 
Morninweg was okay
Roman was great to start but is now doing fine (in my estimation). 

So Harbaugh is not really developing OCs, and is able to hire veteran retreads. In this day and age, we need to find a fresh, cutting edge offensive mind that can entice Lamar to want to stay here. Harbaugh has shown no capacity ever to lure someone like that to be OC here. If Roman leaves, I would bet that his replacement will be worse (unless Harbaugh is removed). 

College is where we would need to go to find such an offensive mind. Someone young and looking to breaking into the NFL.

Garrett Riley strikes me as someone living in his brothers shadow and could switch to the NFL. I’m sure it’d mean we would have to revamp some of our staff that might otherwise feel passed over, but we could try and promote some to something like Assistance HC and roll the dice with a young OC like Riley who could explode to an NFL HC with 1-2 years of cultivated greatness from Lamar.

He’s got a good balance between air raid and strong run game and Harbaugh could lure him in with the idea of adding a few guys he trusts from his current collegiate staff.

Would Harbaugh do this? Probably not. Considering Harbaugh’s track record though, I could see him bringing in Frank Reich to be the OC. And considering the Colts have looked better since Reich left under an inexperienced Saturday, Reich might be burnt out and looking to relax as an OC similar to when Kubiak left the Texans.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

College is where we would need to go to find such an offensive mind. Someone young and looking to breaking into the NFL.

Garrett Riley strikes me as someone living in his brothers shadow and could switch to the NFL. I’m sure it’d mean we would have to revamp some of our staff that might otherwise feel passed over, but we could try and promote some to something like Assistance HC and roll the dice with a young OC like Riley who could explode to an NFL HC with 1-2 years of cultivated greatness from Lamar.

He’s got a good balance between air raid and strong run game and Harbaugh could lure him in with the idea of adding a few guys he trusts from his current collegiate staff.

Would Harbaugh do this? Probably not. Considering Harbaugh’s track record though, I could see him bringing in Frank Reich to be the OC. And considering the Colts have looked better since Reich left under an inexperienced Saturday, Reich might be burnt out and looking to relax as an OC similar to when Kubiak left the Texans.

What about the idea of promoting Keith Williams or Tee Martin to OC? Both of those guys were college guys - granted I have no idea what their track record is other than working with WR's but I don't think there's a high chance Harbaugh promotes a college OC to be an NFL OC straight away. The idea of him hiring a washed retread is infinitely more likely.

[diamondbull424]

58 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

What about the idea of promoting Keith Williams or Tee Martin to OC? Both of those guys were college guys - granted I have no idea what their track record is other than working with WR's but I don't think there's a high chance Harbaugh promotes a college OC to be an NFL OC straight away. The idea of him hiring a washed retread is infinitely more likely.

Yeah, I doubt he’d go with Riley because that’s too bold, but then that goes to @AngusMcFife point about firing Harbaugh if he’s not willing to go with a key offensive mind.

Frank Reich, if he’s burnt out, would probably the most likely. Going with our other options I’m not against, but they’ve no play calling experience to really trust they’d be able to lead our offense to strong results… and if he goes that route, that’s the kind of move that could immediately get him fired if it doesn’t work out.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

44 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Yeah, I doubt he’d go with Riley because that’s too bold, but then that goes to @AngusMcFife point about firing Harbaugh if he’s not willing to go with a key offensive mind.

Frank Reich, if he’s burnt out, would probably the most likely. Going with our other options I’m not against, but they’ve no play calling experience to really trust they’d be able to lead our offense to strong results… and if he goes that route, that’s the kind of move that could immediately get him fired if it doesn’t work out.

Just putting this out there but Shane Waldron had no playcalling experience either going into Seattle and he's done wonders.

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Just putting this out there but Shane Waldron had no playcalling experience either going into Seattle and he's done wonders.

Though Pete Carrol is also a known QB whisperer so that probably also doesn’t hurt the situation either.

[AngusMcFife]

4 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Just putting this out there but Shane Waldron had no playcalling experience either going into Seattle and he's done wonders.

Do you trust Harbaugh to find the next Shane Waldron? 

[AngusMcFife]

8 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

College is where we would need to go to find such an offensive mind. Someone young and looking to breaking into the NFL.

Garrett Riley strikes me as someone living in his brothers shadow and could switch to the NFL. I’m sure it’d mean we would have to revamp some of our staff that might otherwise feel passed over, but we could try and promote some to something like Assistance HC and roll the dice with a young OC like Riley who could explode to an NFL HC with 1-2 years of cultivated greatness from Lamar.

He’s got a good balance between air raid and strong run game and Harbaugh could lure him in with the idea of adding a few guys he trusts from his current collegiate staff.

Sorry but there is no way I'd want a college coach. The NFL game is so much more complex, I have no faith they would succeed without an NFL track record. 

Quote

 I could see him bringing in Frank Reich to be the OC. And considering the Colts have looked better since Reich left under an inexperienced Saturday, Reich might be burnt out and looking to relax as an OC similar to when Kubiak left the Texans.

This would be ideal, but would it be the same result as Kubiak? If he is successful, he'll leave in one year. 

I would rather just let Harbaugh go and hire Reich as HC than try to entice him to come for one year and rebuild his brand for other teams to poach him away from us.

If we try to lure Reich here and he doesn't come, then that would put us in a bad spot. I'd rather create the opening at HC and recruit the best offensive mind than try to fill the OC with a temp or unproven guy. Lamar needs to have a coaching staff in place that he can trust will help him flourish.  

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Do you trust Harbaugh to find the next Shane Waldron? 

nope.

[AngusMcFife]

Is anyone else a little more skeptical of Mike MacDonald given that Michigan lost Hutchinson and Ojabo from last years team and yet are a WAY better defense?