Random Ravens Thoughts: New Forum Edition

[DontTazeMeBro]

😬I’ve been back and forth on Roman since he became OC but I really don’t want to lose him in the middle of the season.

[RavensfanRD]

10 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Is anyone else a little more skeptical of Mike MacDonald given that Michigan lost Hutchinson and Ojabo from last years team and yet are a WAY better defense? 

Not a fan of Dean Pees Jr. , but the season is... youngish.

59 minutes ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

😬I’ve been back and forth on Roman since he became OC but I really don’t want to lose him in the middle of the season.

Don't worry, he will finish out the season. And if the Ravens win the Superbowl, he'll be signed to a lifetime contract.

[diamondbull424]

3 hours ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

😬I’ve been back and forth on Roman since he became OC but I really don’t want to lose him in the middle of the season.

Yeah I’m not sure I’m afraid of losing him mid-season as we wouldn’t be changing the scheme, just the playcaller. Might be useful information to know if someone else can do similar things or if Roman was truly the architect of greatness.

But yeah if he leaves, you’d have to imagine it would be playoff time or else Stanford would be putting themselves at a huge disadvantage. And if he leaves then, that would put the team at a huge disadvantage.

So if he leaves I’d rather he leave now so the team has time to figure out play calling duties prior to playoff time.

[AngusMcFife]

Wrong thread

Edited December 4, 2022 by AngusMcFife

[AngusMcFife]

Wrong thread

Edited December 4, 2022 by AngusMcFife

[DreamKid]

I had a feeling the numbers would be bad when I looked them up but......

Out of 12 f*cking games this year we've had a HB go over 50 yards rushing just five times. FIVE TIMES!!!!! 

In a Lamar Jackson offense with a Top 5 OL!!!!!!    

Does anyone not grasp how utterly sickening that is?!!.....

In the seven games Lamar started during his Rookie year we had a HB go over 50 yards Nine Times!!!

 

In the beginning we accepted that we wouldn't have advanced or possibly even threatening passing concepts in the offense because Roman was OC, but the tradeoff was a historic running game.

Then the historic running game went away.

Then the dominant running game went away.

Then the complimentary(HB) running game to Lamar went away

Then the ability to consistently convert short yardage runs on late downs went away.

Now, with a Top 5 OL, we just accept that it's insanely difficult to run the ball 🤣. We're bashing Mark Andrews', our All-Pro TE, brains in on short yardage opportunities because we're so desperate to move the ball 1 yard or less. Our red zone TD scoring % is now better than only 2 out of 6 post SB era Flacco squads.

The situation has grown ridiculous and Biscotti needs to step in and end it. We're failing the talent we have on the roster and these coaches don't deserve to be here going forward. 

[AngusMcFife]

Another viewpoint: We've scored 27 points 3 out of the past 5 games, and the other two games we won. Ultimately we need Stanley, Dobbins, and Gus healthy to be really good, but the offense has been good enough in their absence. 

[DreamKid]

26 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Another viewpoint: We've scored 27 points 3 out of the past 5 games, and the other two games we won. Ultimately we need Stanley, Dobbins, and Gus healthy to be really good, but the offense has been good enough in their absence. 

By no metric is this offense living up to it's potential and that's what matters. 

We have a Top 5 OL, the best TE group in the NFL, the GOAT at Kicker, and Lamar Jackson. Passable or better talents at all other spots. We've produced more with a lot less at HB & WR during both Flacco & Lamar's era.

There's no reason our rushing production outside of Lamar's contributions should be this bad. We have ZERO easy or reliable offense on a team with the most dynamic QB in NFL history and a good offensive line- that's inexcusable from any angle. 

Lamar is no doubt battling some regression, but he's still a better passer now than he was as a Rookie- and that offense was more consistent. 20 or more points every week. Even scored 17 against the Chargers in what was a near total collapse of the offense during the playoffs. 

With one of the most injured teams in NFL history(21') we scored only 20 points or less in 8 games. This year we've already hit 5 games of 20 points or less, with five more games to go. 

There's no sugar coating any of this. In the running game, Lamar's presence should be opening up clear running lanes that elevate the production of even pedestrian HBs. And in the passing game, his presence should be occupying extra attention from LBs- creating tons of exploitable space for all of our slot weapons to attack(Andrews, Likely, Oliver, Duvernay). That's how this offense has thrived since the beginning of the Lamar era, and that's how it should be working to this day. 

[AngusMcFife]

6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

By no metric is this offense living up to it's potential and that's what matters. 

We have a Top 5 OL, the best TE group in the NFL, the GOAT at Kicker, and Lamar Jackson. Passable or better talents at all other spots. We've produced more with a lot less at HB & WR during both Flacco & Lamar's era.

The OL is definitely not top 5 without Stanley, and he's only played in 38% of offensive snaps. Without Stanley they are maybe an average OL. He is the superstar of the group at the most important position. 

There is no way we have the best TE group in the NFL. Andrews is not the same since his injury and not at 100%. All the other TEs are average players at best. 

Quote

There's no reason our rushing production outside of Lamar's contributions should be this bad. We have ZERO easy or reliable offense on a team with the most dynamic QB in NFL history and a good offensive line- that's inexcusable from any angle... Lamar's presence should be opening up clear running lanes that elevate the production of even pedestrian HBs.

The rushing offense is ranked 2nd in DVOA. I know the RB production has not been good, but I think that's because other teams are consciously playing the RBs and living with the results of Lamar keeping the ball. You have to judge the unit as a whole, and as a whole they have the 2nd best rushing attack in the league (according to DVOA). 

Quote

With one of the most injured teams in NFL history(21') we scored only 20 points or less in 8 games. This year we've already hit 5 games of 20 points or less, with five more games to go. 

Scoring is down this year. Ravens won all 3 games in which they scored less than 20 points, interestingly. 

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And in the passing game, his presence should be occupying extra attention from LBs- creating tons of exploitable space for all of our slot weapons to attack(Andrews, Likely, Oliver, Duvernay). That's how this offense has thrived since the beginning of the Lamar era, and that's how it should be working to this day. 

The passing game is suspect, but teams know to flood the middle of the field because our outside threats are so weak. Maybe as Desean Jackson gets stronger he can open up more space. 

 

Overall I do have concerns about the offense, but going into this season the hope was always that it would be rounding into form come playoff time. Gus and Dobbins are still working their way back, Stanley has been spotty, and unfortunately Bateman is done. But if Lamar and Stanley return, and Gus and Dobbins regain just a bit of their strength and explosiveness by January, it could be a dangerous offense come playoff time. 

[DreamKid]

The discussion around the talent provided to our offense by the FO has legitimately grown psychotic. These are just talking heads paid to regurgitate feces for their pleb viewers, but a lot of the fanbase has lost the plot as well. I've never seen so many social media posts filled with such utter lunacy, even when compared to the hellscape of last season.

A lot of this insanity is just cope imo. Lamar has struggled with some severe regression and is now hurt. Fans and pundits who love Lamar are trying to explain away his issues in a deflecting way because they don't want to accept his poor form as anything but the fault of some ominous/nefarious outside forces. Happens a lot with popular figures, "X can't fail, X can only be failed". Tyler Huntley's clutch up and relative comfortability in the offense is a major contributor to the overboard takes as well. The amount of "The Ravens purposefully gave Huntley better plays to sabotage Lamar's negotiating power" takes I've seen the past couple days has me worried for some of the fandom's mental health. It's also hilarious how they(portions of the fanbase + media figures) think they're doing right by Lamar with their attacks on Baltimore's FO when just last week they tried to besmirch his character over a dumb tweet. 

 

To be clear, when everyone is healthy the only spot on this offense where we have a truly below average talent is WR2. The FO can't control the health of the players, their only job is to supply talent. 

HB: JK Dobbins, Gus Edwards, Justice Hill, Kenyon Drake

FB: Patrick Ricard

TE: Mark Andrews, Isaiah Likely, Josh Oliver, Charlie Kolar

WR: Rashod Bateman, Devin Duvernay, Demarcus Robinson, Desean Jackson

LT: Ronnie Stanley,  Patrick Mekari, Ja'Wuan Jones

LG: Ben Powers, Ben Cleveland

Center: Tyler Linderbaum, Trystan Colon

RG: Kevin Zeitler

RT: Morgan Moses, Daniel Faalele

^^^A talented WR addition would push Duve and D-Rob to WR3/4, and obviously a really talented IOL could steal LG from Powers imo. Every other spot is locked up. When healthy, that's an exceptionally solid offense with depth built around Lamar. It's also built to meet Lamar's requests. Lamar asked for more help/talent across the offensive line this offseason, and that's exactly what the FO gave him. Which again makes the "our FO failed Lamar" takes so funny. If not for awful coaching and play calling this is an undefeated team, even with Lamar playing his worst ball and the continuation of our injury woes from 2021. That can't be accomplished with poor roster construction. 

There is only one spot on the roster where I feel there was absolute negligence and it certainly isn't WR or even on offense. We went into the season with our only starting caliber or even passable options at CB being two players returning from season ending injury(Humphrey & Peters)- that's poor work from the FO, but just gets swept under the rug because wunderkind Kyle Hamilton is able to stand in at NCB and the talent at ILB(Roquan Smith) lets us stay in base defense more than usual. 

The goal on offense coming into the season was clear: With the offensive line juiced back up, get back to our 2019 ways-

Rashod Bateman > Marquise Brown

Devin Duvernay > Willie Snead

Demarcus Robinson > Seth Roberts/Miles Boykin

Mark Andrews = Mark Andrews

Isaiah Likely  ?  Hayden Hurst

JK Dobbins > Mark Ingram

Gus Edwards = Gus Edwards

Patrick Ricard = Patrick Ricard

^^^Truly sucks Bateman got injured, but the plan on offense was at least clear.

Unfortunately the worst case scenario emerged where Bateman goes down for the season, we have no dominant or even complimentary running game, the injury bug hits us all over again, and Lamar is playing his worst ball since his Rookie year- the recipe for our offense looking like hot garbage. The FO couldn't anticipate any of that happening though, and especially not all of it happening it at once. 

What they could anticipate is how dire our situation would be at CB. Jimmy Smith retired, Tavon Young and Anthony Averett gone in FA, Marcus Peters and Marlon Humphrey coming off season ending injury. That's 3 CBs gone in one offseason and your only remaining options returning from injury. A team needs at least 4 starting caliber CBs. Three to start in the most frequent NFL defensive formation(nickel) and a backup for when one those three inevitably gets injured. It's incredible just how far we fell away from meeting those standards.  

Stephens was converted to Safety because he's a trash CB, then he was reverted back when we came into some of the greatest Safety depth in NFL history. Keven Seymour is a STer as is Daryl Worley. Pepe Williams is a strict NCB only option, and JAD had limited experience + past injury issues. Finally, leading the stellar group of backups was Kyle Fuller- a 30 yo slot CB coming off an awful awful season...... I just don't understand what they were thinking?

We've probably had one or more injuries hit the CB position every single season since the franchise's inception. We literally just had a situation where we lost both starting CBs, why test fate? They tried to trade for Xavien Howard last year they wanted another CB so bad. Stingley and Sauce were reportedly the only players we'd have considered a trade up for in the draft. Yet, the season started and we made no additions. Then, what the F else? Fuller goes down for a season ending injury and in comes Brandon Stephens/Pepe. Finally, shocker!!!, Marlon picks up an injury and everything falls apart. Marcus Peters struggling post injury is just the sh*t cherry on top of it all.

If not for Marcus Williams earlier in the season and Kyle Hamilton currently helping cover up situation at CB, we could be staring at a W/L record that has us out of the playoffs. 

DeCosta and co. know how important CB is and have dedicated a lot of resources/attention to it in the past, that's what makes their blunder so troubling. I compare the situation to how they handled Tackle going into 2021, totally unacceptable imo.

[DreamKid]

This Patrick Queen 'Cart Saga' is a bright spot of hilarity to emerge during a tumultuous season. Dude was screaming in pain and escorted by machine off that field....   Now he's getting clowned on by teammates and will probably start this week. I'll say it again, have never seen a situation like this in the NFL- ever. 😂

Happy you're healthy PQ 👍.

[DreamKid]

 

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, DreamKid said:

The goal on offense coming into the season was clear: With the offensive line juiced back up, get back to our 2019 ways-

Rashod Bateman > Marquise Brown

Devin Duvernay > Willie Snead

Demarcus Robinson > Seth Roberts/Miles Boykin

Mark Andrews = Mark Andrews

Isaiah Likely  ?  Hayden Hurst

JK Dobbins > Mark Ingram

Gus Edwards = Gus Edwards

Patrick Ricard = Patrick Ricard

^^^Truly sucks Bateman got injured, but the plan on offense was at least clear.

I disagree. Well at least partially. I haven’t watched the video yet to see if there’s perhaps something within the media take that is truly appalling.

But I think Lamar has absolutely been failed. He’s been forced to choose between good OL or good WR core, while the defense has been prioritized.

The formula for what the Offense was supposed to be was indeed clear, but relying on Bateman to stay healthy for us to have any explosive element to the offense was fools candy.

What’s more while Duvernay is a good weapon, he’s not a particularly great WR, his route running and ball tracking skills leave a lot to be desired, which is why the receiver Lamar should have the least chemistry with, he’s got the most chemistry with… mainly because Robinson is the most talented legitimate WR option on the team (minus Bateman).

It’s no wonder that the moment Bateman went down Lamar began to start struggling whereas prior he was an early runner in the MVP convo.

Had the team added someone like DeSean Jackson to the fold earlier and he was up to speed earlier than that would be different.

But between Stanley being unreliable and Bateman being such a critical lynchpin to the offensive explosiveness of this offense, which in turn correlates to additional space within the run game; EDC was overly complacent about the WR position and what would be necessary to build an efficient offensive attack.

I don’t deny that Lamar has regressed in his ball accuracy, however EDC had a young QB and through the duration of his rookie contract forced him to choose between weapons and protection, when he should’ve been making the defensive side of the ball choose and rely on the quality of coaching to field a strong unit. 
 

Christian Watson was a personal WR favorite of mine that I felt fit this offense and what Lamar needed to a T, he was my Nick Chubb (and Jeffery Simmons) of this past draft. He was available in the second round, yet we help out our DC to get “his guy” vs helping get Lamar a 6’4” 215 lbs WR that runs a 4.3 and was one of the best deep threats in college football with uncanny movement skills.

Let the defense figure itself out, trade our 2nd, 3rd, and a 4th to secure such a weapon and show Lamar that you’re willing to commit to him an abundance of options like Cincy did with Burrow at WR and then also attacking OL aggressively. They let their coaches figure out the defense through scheme.

 

So I absolutely disagree with the idea that EDC hasn’t failed Lamar. The situation with Ronnie Stanley is kind of hard for me to completely pin on the front office because there’s not much way to know Stanley would sit out such a long amount of time, but in 2021 they knew they were trading away their top healthy OL and didn’t use a top pick to replace him for Lamar. Oweh was a dart so I didn’t hate the pick, but Creed Humphrey was one of the best center prospects and particularly one of the best fits for this offense in a long time.

Conversely in 2022 they knew they were trading away their top WR option and equally didn’t use a top pick to replace him. That’s unexcusable.

It’s easy to see the plan EDC was shooting for in 2021 and 2022 for the offense, yet each time it failed because of things people had predicted. In 2021 both you and @Ray Reed predicted the OL issues prior and I maintained that EDC had a good plan in place. This offseason I called out the WR situation as very problematic and you’re saying you can see the plan. However the plan hasn’t optimally worked in either case… and that falls on EDC, he chose the defense over Lamar.

[SalvadorsDeli]

Pegging your expectations to building around Lamar just to 2019 and thus being able to say, "See, we're no worse off than when Seth Roberts played," is a clever way to try and polish up EDC's record up but it's extremely disingenuous. But what's telling about the comparison is just the obscene sameness of this offense in the 3 years since. It's not like our offense was actually stacked in 2019 from a personnel perspective. But it's a good barometer. Zero progress made, nothing meaningfully built from what really was a unique opportunity to build something new. Instead just quibbling around the edges about whether Devin Duvernay is better than Willie Snead. Yeah it sucks that Bateman got hurt but him getting hurt shouldn't have been the make or break thing it was if we took our offense as seriously as we took, I dunno, the punter or inside linebacker position. 

The smallness of that conversation on its own makes it clear how little we actually did to take advantage of the opportunity this organization had after 2019. That's an EDC and Harbaugh problem both. Since it's so easy individually to pass blame to the other when you're just talking about one or the other, I actually like that the national media is just talking about the job the organization as a whole did. We whiffed on our championship window. 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by SalvadorsDeli

[Ray Reed]

I was positive the OL issues i saw forthcoming in ‘21 would sink the team because I saw Lamar - even at his best - really fail to deal with a shaky OL. It just doesn’t work with him. 

This season with the WR issues I had at least a LITTLE hope that a. Bateman wouldn’t get injured right away, but more importantly b. Lamar would improve upon his passing mechanics/patience and footwork in the pocket/ accuracy/ and seeming less generally frazzled now that he was going to have a solid OL (unlike 21), and that simply didn’t come to fruition. Bateman going down sucked but Lamar not getting back to at least 2020 level with his work in the pocket has been the biggest change this year for the offense imo. Obviously some of that is Stanley injury I suppose. Some of it is probably contract stuff in the back of the mind. 

Still just sucks to see a player i really expected to take a big leap forward in a contract year and reassert himself at the top of the QB pantheon really just struggle with any sort of consistency this year and kind of fall back to the mid tier of QBs this year.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Ray Reed