Patrick Mahomes II vs Jared Goff

[jrry32]

15 minutes ago, AntonChigurh said:

Well, I think McVays system does a very good job of putting Goff in good situations.

Its vast, creative and exploits mismatches as good as it gets.

If qbs switched teams, Mahomes could probably do just as well if not better in McVays system.

His arm talent is exceedingly rare and he can read defenses well already.

 

Favre and Rodgers never had the supporting cast Mahomes has and he only is a rookie.

 

Turnovers will go down as Mahomes plays more games.

Goff is good thrower of the fb but he isn't special at the NFL like Mahomes at all.

 

Woods, Kupp, Cook, Gurley

Give mahomes those weapons.....

You do realize that Mahomes plays for Andy Reid in an offense that is similarly talented, right? You realize that Mahomes has attempted significantly less tight window throws this year than Goff, right?

Mahomes has special arm strength. Goff has special accuracy/ball placement. You swap those two guys, and they'd each be dominating on the other squad.

[stl4life07]

7 minutes ago, AntonChigurh said:

I will say this. Goff does extremely well with the pieces he is given.

A taller Drew Brees if you will.

Well, I think McVays system does a very good job of putting Goff in good situations.

Its vast, creative and exploits mismatches as good as it gets.

If qbs switched teams, Mahomes could probably do just as well if not better in McVays system.

His arm talent is exceedingly rare and he can read defenses well already.

 

Favre and Rodgers never had the supporting cast Mahomes has and he only is a rookie.

 

Turnovers will go down as Mahomes plays more games.

Goff is good thrower of the fb but he isn't special at the NFL like Mahomes at all.

 

Woods, Kupp, Cook, Gurley

Give mahomes those weapons.....

I hope you are right about Mahomes turnovers will go down as he plays more games because again people are comparing him to Favre and we know Favre never changed his ways. Whats scary about Mahomes too is that he hasnt even played a full season worth of games. Again I love Mahomes but I want a guy I can trust wont hurt the team in terms of turnovers. Mahomes gifted abilities can be a curse sometimes. Same as with ARod. He makes those spectacular plays but then he will either bypass the simple play to look for the big play or he will simply throw an incompletion on an easy play. Like that play against the Seahawks on 3rd and 2. He had Adams wide open for an easy 1st down and just threw a bad pass. That forced the Packers to punt and they never got the ball back to try to tie or win the game. 

[Jlowe22]

27 minutes ago, AntonChigurh said:

Favre and Rodgers never had the supporting cast Mahomes has and he only is a rookie.

 

People act like Rodgers has never had any help, but that's only true in recent times.  In 2010, he had the number 2 defense in the league, and in 2011 that receiving core was on another level.  Even Matt Flynn threw 6 TDs in a game with those guys.  And the defense, while bad, got a ton of takeaways that year.

I'm not saying Mahomes is on Rodgers level, at least not yet, but Rodgers didn't have his best seasons without any help.

[AntonChigurh]

40 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

You do realize that Mahomes plays for Andy Reid in an offense that is similarly talented, right? You realize that Mahomes has attempted significantly less tight window throws this year than Goff, right?

Mahomes has special arm strength. Goff has special accuracy/ball placement. You swap those two guys, and they'd each be dominating on the other squad.

You under estimate Mahomes accuracy and ball placement.

I would argue Goffs decision making is better than Mahomes. I am pretty sure of that.

But Mahomes is already showing the capability to pinpoint where to put the ball in the best for the receiver to rac.

Goffs anticipation and timing is superb but Mahomes is naturally more accurate.

 

37 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

I hope you are right about Mahomes turnovers will go down as he plays more games because again people are comparing him to Favre and we know Favre never changed his ways. Whats scary about Mahomes too is that he hasnt even played a full season worth of games. Again I love Mahomes but I want a guy I can trust wont hurt the team in terms of turnovers. Mahomes gifted abilities can be a curse sometimes. Same as with ARod. He makes those spectacular plays but then he will either bypass the simple play to look for the big play or he will simply throw an incompletion on an easy play. Like that play against the Seahawks on 3rd and 2. He had Adams wide open for an easy 1st down and just threw a bad pass. That forced the Packers to punt and they never got the ball back to try to tie or win the game. 

You said it yourself, he hasn't had a full season.

Mahomes has time to work out late game tunnel vision.

Watkins being out was a difference maker in this game.

34 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

People act like Rodgers has never had any help, but that's only true in recent times.  In 2010, he had the number 2 defense in the league, and in 2011 that receiving core was on another level.  Even Matt Flynn threw 6 TDs in a game with those guys.  And the defense, while bad, got a ton of takeaways that year.

I'm not saying Mahomes is on Rodgers level, at least not yet, but Rodgers didn't have his best seasons without any help.

Young Rodgers with Hill is basically what you are getting now. Arod never had that type of weapon.

 

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, AntonChigurh said:

You under estimate Mahomes accuracy and ball placement.

I would argue Goffs decision making is better than Mahomes. I am pretty sure of that.

But Mahomes is already showing the capability to pinpoint where to put the ball in the best for the receiver to rac.

Goffs anticipation and timing is superb but Mahomes is naturally more accurate.

BS. Goff doesn't just show the capability to hit his WR in the strike-zone to maximize YAC, he does it consistently. He's been making tight window throws look easy all year long.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-teams-quarterback-play-through-week-11

Jared Goff has been a sight to behold this season. You can talk scheme all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Goff has the most big-time throws of any quarterback this season (29). Those are throws that require special ball placement and timing down the field and there’s no scheme that can ‘fake’ them.

[Soko]

1 hour ago, AntonChigurh said:

Rodgers never had the supporting cast Mahomes has and he only is a rookie.

Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, Randall Cobb, Jermichael Finley, David Bakthiari, Bryan Bulaga, Josh Sitton, TJ Lang, and Jimmy Graham all scrubs or something?

Never had a back like hunt or a tight end like Kelce, but he’s had much better offensive lines and some of the best receiving corps that we’ve seen. Yeesh. And I’ll leave the “Mahomes is a rookie” comment alone.

[rocky_rams]

Mahomes and Goff are both very good.

3 hours ago, jrry32 said:

You do realize that Mahomes plays for Andy Reid in an offense that is similarly talented, right? You realize that Mahomes has attempted significantly less tight window throws this year than Goff, right?

Mahomes has special arm strength. Goff has special accuracy/ball placement. You swap those two guys, and they'd each be dominating on the other squad.

Exactly.  But accuracy matters for than arm strength. 

I wonder how Mahomes would do without Hill. Goff has shown he does great without his number one big play receiver (Cooks)

[jrry32]

13 minutes ago, rocky_rams said:

Mahomes and Goff are both very good.

Exactly.  But accuracy matters for than arm strength. 

I wonder how Mahomes would do without Hill. Goff has shown he does great without his number one big play receiver (Cooks)

Yeah, it's funny that Goff gets criticized for his supporting cast, but I bet those people didn't watch the Seattle game. Goff had to play the entire second half AT Seattle without Kupp and Brandin Cooks. We scored 16 points (would have been 17, but Santos missed the PAT), beat Seattle 33-31 in their house, and Goff led a 4th Quarter Comeback/Game-Winning Drive and converted a 4th and 1 to ice the game. He also went 7/9 for 105 yards and the offense scored on every single drive, except the final drive where we ran the clock out, in that half.

Mahomes is a baller. He could succeed without Hill. But a lot of people ignorantly assume that Goff is entirely a product of his supporting cast/scheme. The kid can play. 

[Riftty]

16 hours ago, AntonChigurh said:

I will say this. Goff does extremely well with the pieces he is given.

A taller Drew Brees if you will.

Well, I think McVays system does a very good job of putting Goff in good situations.

Its vast, creative and exploits mismatches as good as it gets.

If qbs switched teams, Mahomes could probably do just as well if not better in McVays system.

His arm talent is exceedingly rare and he can read defenses well already.

 

Favre and Rodgers never had the supporting cast Mahomes has and he only is a rookie.

 

Turnovers will go down as Mahomes plays more games.

Goff is good thrower of the fb but he isn't special at the NFL like Mahomes at all.

 

Woods, Kupp, Cook, Gurley

Give mahomes those weapons.....

Haha you can not make the "Goff has better weapons" argument at all. They pretty much break even with that. 

[Buckweath]

Short of injury, I am very confident that Mahomes will be better than Goff and possibly much better.

That whole turnover narrative is way overrated and even then, Mahomes is that type of QB who can beat you no matter the turnovers.

The guy is in his first year starting, his play was supposed to have speed bumps but there have been very little.

I would expect him to finish the season with 12 or 13 INTs, which is far from bad for how many TDs he will throw.

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, Buckweath said:

Short of injury, I am very confident that Mahomes will be better than Goff and possibly much better.

I don't think this is as convincing as you believe it is.

[AntonChigurh]

2 hours ago, Riftty said:

Haha you can not make the "Goff has better weapons" argument at all. They pretty much break even with that. 

Gurley, Cooks, Woods, Kupp?????????

Kelce, Hill, Hunt??????

Gurley > Hunt

Cooks < Hill

Woods > Watkins

Kupp > Conley

Higbe < Kelce

 

Break even indeed....

 

[Riftty]

48 minutes ago, AntonChigurh said:

Gurley, Cooks, Woods, Kupp?????????

Kelce, Hill, Hunt??????

Gurley > Hunt

Cooks < Hill

Woods > Watkins

Kupp > Conley

Higbe < Kelce

 

Break even indeed....

 

Well if you want to get technical....for the MNF game kupp was out and Gurley was injured. So Mahomes clearly had better weapons in that game. Unless you think Everett>Kelce Reynolds>Conley, Watkins.....

[BAConrad]

So @Buckweath I'm seriously asking ......what tape are u seeing that shows Mahomes consistently making enough accurate, tight window throws required to be considered "just as accurate if not moreso than Goff"?

Goff's accuracy, ball placement, and touch are elite. And I mean Elite as in  :I've now seen 2+ seasons worth of game tape which show that there arent 3 QBs alive who is as good as Goff is at those things....

I'm really not trying to dump on Mahomes...I have no dog in this fight. I just don't see him ever really having to make tough throws or improvise on broken plays and hit guys downfield. I can literally count on one hand the number of completions Mahomes has thrown to WRs who had less than one yard of separation. True story. I think Mahomes, in a nutshell can be summed up as: is a physical specimen with unique arm talent that let's him make any throw, even on the run which is great, but has been dropped into an incredible situation. Andy Reid has designed the offense to maximize Mahomes' unique abilities, and KC has done an incredible job of acquiring these special weapons who are basically uncoverable. If Andy Reid choked on a cheese steak before a game one Sunday and had to go to the ER, Mahomes would not run that offense well on his own. Having to diagnose blitz packages and presnap coverage looks on his own would throw him off a lot IMO. That's when the mistakes come. At the ideal point, the Chiefs are most deadly when Mahomes can use his cannon to throw the ball to wide open guys who not can get open within seconds. Combine that with Pat's athleticism and movement outside the pocket extending plays? Game over. People can't even cover those guys on KC for 3 seconds ...how the hell can anyone expect to stay on them for 7, 8, 9, 10 seconds AND at ends of games when Hill is still running just as fast then as he was the first play? Its insane. Andy Reid has literally built the ultimate football machine on offense. 

[Buckweath]

On ‎2018‎-‎11‎-‎25 at 9:19 AM, BAConrad said:

So @Buckweath I'm seriously asking ......what tape are u seeing that shows Mahomes consistently making enough accurate, tight window throws required to be considered "just as accurate if not moreso than Goff"?

Goff's accuracy, ball placement, and touch are elite. And I mean Elite as in  :I've now seen 2+ seasons worth of game tape which show that there arent 3 QBs alive who is as good as Goff is at those things....

I'm really not trying to dump on Mahomes...I have no dog in this fight. I just don't see him ever really having to make tough throws or improvise on broken plays and hit guys downfield. I can literally count on one hand the number of completions Mahomes has thrown to WRs who had less than one yard of separation. True story. I think Mahomes, in a nutshell can be summed up as: is a physical specimen with unique arm talent that let's him make any throw, even on the run which is great, but has been dropped into an incredible situation. Andy Reid has designed the offense to maximize Mahomes' unique abilities, and KC has done an incredible job of acquiring these special weapons who are basically uncoverable. If Andy Reid choked on a cheese steak before a game one Sunday and had to go to the ER, Mahomes would not run that offense well on his own. Having to diagnose blitz packages and presnap coverage looks on his own would throw him off a lot IMO. That's when the mistakes come. At the ideal point, the Chiefs are most deadly when Mahomes can use his cannon to throw the ball to wide open guys who not can get open within seconds. Combine that with Pat's athleticism and movement outside the pocket extending plays? Game over. People can't even cover those guys on KC for 3 seconds ...how the hell can anyone expect to stay on them for 7, 8, 9, 10 seconds AND at ends of games when Hill is still running just as fast then as he was the first play? Its insane. Andy Reid has literally built the ultimate football machine on offense. 

First of all, it is not because you don't throw into tight windows that you are any less accurate.

Secondly, I never said he was "just as accurate if not moreso than Goff" but rather that I am not sure he is any less accurate than Goff. I mean, Goff might be a bit more accurate but Mahomes is real accurate too. I agree that Goff is extremely accurate.

And people can keep doubting Mahomes and say they need to see more. But as Louis Riddick said of the Chiefs brass before the season, it is not that they are hoping he will be good, they are confident he will be great.

He is an exceptional talent who on top of that had the chance to be put in a perfect situation to start his career. You can keep doubting him but at this point, I am confident he will be one of the greatest QBs of all time. That's where I am at, as crazy as it sounds.

There might be a few more speed bumps along the way but when it is all said and done, you will see.