Prime JJ Watt or Aaron Donald?

[pwny]

4 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

To some degree. You can obviously compare disruptions. I'm fine with including PDs in that. But I often see PDs brought up in comparisons like this one and haven't seen people talking much about pressures. I don't know what Donald's pressure numbers are this year, but they were out of the world last year.

If we wanted to figure it out, I'd start by charting the ANY/A for league averages against each situation; Pressured, no pressure, batted balls, sacks, and then go from there. 

 

But insofar as your question is concerned,

Last year, Donald had 66 hurries this season to go with 13 hits and 12 sacks, giving him 91 total pressures.

In 2014, Watt had 20.5 sacks, 44 quarterback hits, 54 quarterback hurries - for 119 total pressures. On top of that were his batted passes.

[pwny]

7 minutes ago, El ramster said:

PFF Elite Stat: Donald led all interior defenders with 91 pressures in the regular season. That figure was so dominant that Geno Atkins, who ranked second with 70 pressures, was closer to eighth-highest Fletcher Cox (50) than he was to Donald.

Watt had 119 in 2014.

[El Ramster]

Just now, pwny said:

Watt had 119 in 2014.

I've seen that. Donald might break the highest grade ever this year.

https://g.redditmedia.com/k6_o8GO3vkzUm_4Y7HwILXK6oneWqyFu_fnuO1wam4c.gif?fm=mp4&mp4-fragmented=false&s=aba12097d6f5f5f505383109ac2dae52

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, pwny said:

If we wanted to figure it out, I'd start by charting the ANY/A for league averages against each situation; Pressured, no pressure, batted balls, sacks, and then go from there. 

 

But insofar as your question is concerned,

Last year, Donald had 66 hurries this season to go with 13 hits and 12 sacks, giving him 91 total pressures.

In 2014, Watt had 20.5 sacks, 44 quarterback hits, 54 quarterback hurries - for 119 total pressures. On top of that were his batted passes.

Donald also did that in 14 games at a more difficult position (he had 103 in 15 games if you count the playoff game). But we're not comparing 2017 Donald to 2014 Watt, as far as I know. The point I'm making is that I see people writing off Donald on the basis of PDs. I'm not sure anyone can equal Watt's 2012 season, but we'll wait and see where Donald is at the end of this year.

[pwny]

4 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Donald also did that in 14 games at a more difficult position (he had 103 in 15 games if you count the playoff game). But we're not comparing 2017 Donald to 2014 Watt, as far as I know. The point I'm making is that I see people writing off Donald on the basis of PDs. I'm not sure anyone can equal Watt's 2012 season, but we'll wait and see where Donald is at the end of this year.

I think it's much less writing off Donald because of that and more they're close to identical as far as pass rush disruptions and tackles for loss go that the PDs are the only thing that you can say separates them in any meaningful way - and it's sizable separating piece at that. If Donald can find a way to outproduce Watt in those other facets, it might not be the difference. But as for now, as they sit nearly identical with everything else (with Watt still probably finding more total pressures), that's where the difference resides.

[Art_Vandalay]

16 hours ago, El ramster said:

that's not part of the job though. That's like a DB getting sacks, While it's nice. It doesn't mean it's his job. 

Or a QB that can run, Again it's nice but not a necessity. 

 

 

I'd say a better comparison is choosing between two QBs that do everything great. Elite accuracy, elite arm strength, elite decision making, etc. But one is 6'5 Andy the other is 6'1. You're choosing the bigger guy because of how they can see the entire field and are less likely to have passes batted down. Watt and Donald are both elite run stoppers and elite pass rushers. Genetics just prevents Donald from being as dominant as prime Watt. This doesn't mean he won't end up as a first ballot HOFer and one of the best players to ever step on the field. It just means he can't reach prime Watt status. Watt can be argued as the defensive GOAT. That's not the case for Donald.

[El Ramster]

1 hour ago, Art_Vandalay said:

I'd say a better comparison is choosing between two QBs that do everything great. Elite accuracy, elite arm strength, elite decision making, etc. But one is 6'5 Andy the other is 6'1. You're choosing the bigger guy because of how they can see the entire field and are less likely to have passes batted down. Watt and Donald are both elite run stoppers and elite pass rushers. Genetics just prevents Donald from being as dominant as prime Watt. This doesn't mean he won't end up as a first ballot HOFer and one of the best players to ever step on the field. It just means he can't reach prime Watt status. Watt can be argued as the defensive GOAT. That's not the case for Donald.

I don't see that at all. That's like me saying Cox is a second tier scrub because he can't come close to Donald in every way possible. 

Which sounds insane because Cox is a great player. I'm just using the same logic you are. 

[Art_Vandalay]

1 hour ago, El ramster said:

I don't see that at all. That's like me saying Cox is a second tier scrub because he can't come close to Donald in every way possible. 

Which sounds insane because Cox is a great player. I'm just using the same logic you are. 

Lmao that's not even close to the same logic. Did you read anything past the first few sentences? Aaron Donald is superior to Fletcher Cox in every aspect. Cox is great but Donald is elite. Read all of my post please.

[El Ramster]

1 hour ago, Art_Vandalay said:

Lmao that's not even close to the same logic. Did you read anything past the first few sentences? Aaron Donald is superior to Fletcher Cox in every aspect. Cox is great but Donald is elite. Read all of my post please.

That’s essentially what you’re saying though. 

You’re saying that this Donald doesn’t touch prime Watt. Which is a joke, because there isn’t a better defender in the game by a huge shot. 

[Art_Vandalay]

3 hours ago, El ramster said:

That’s essentially what you’re saying though. 

You’re saying that this Donald doesn’t touch prime Watt. Which is a joke, because there isn’t a better defender in the game by a huge shot. 

I'm saying they do everything at an elite level. They don't run stop better than the other. They don't pass rush better than the other. JJ's always been capable of killing drives with his height and awareness by batting down at the line though. That's not Donald's fault. Everything he can physically do, he does at an elite level. The same goes for Watt. All I'm saying is that his being 6'5 allows him to do more. I don't know how else to simplify it, man.

Donald may be able to do things just as good as  prime Watt but he can't do one thing better than him. 

[JaguarCrazy2832]

Prime Watt was not only a HOF DE but also a darn-good redzone threat lol

[MSURacerDT55]

23 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said:

I'd say a better comparison is choosing between two QBs that do everything great. Elite accuracy, elite arm strength, elite decision making, etc. But one is 6'5 Andy the other is 6'1. You're choosing the bigger guy because of how they can see the entire field and are less likely to have passes batted down. Watt and Donald are both elite run stoppers and elite pass rushers. Genetics just prevents Donald from being as dominant as prime Watt. This doesn't mean he won't end up as a first ballot HOFer and one of the best players to ever step on the field. It just means he can't reach prime Watt status. Watt can be argued as the defensive GOAT. That's not the case for Donald.

1) THE dumbest post I've seen all year, congrats.

2) Only argued by Watt fans, false in reality

[El Ramster]

2 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

1) THE dumbest post I've seen all year, congrats.

2) Only argued by Watt fans, false in reality

I had to read his post like 13 times. Because, that’s like saying Wilt >> Jordan because he’s taller and could block more shots. Not the ideal reference but in the ball park. I get what he’s saying but not buying it at all. I’m returning everything without a 15% re stocking fee because it was a company error. 

[Art_Vandalay]

6 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

1) THE dumbest post I've seen all year, congrats.

2) Only argued by Watt fans, false in reality

 

3 hours ago, El ramster said:

I had to read his post like 13 times. Because, that’s like saying Wilt >> Jordan because he’s taller and could block more shots. Not the ideal reference but in the ball park. I get what he’s saying but not buying it at all. I’m returning everything without a 15% re stocking fee because it was a company error. 

Every response to me has been something like "lol dumb" but you have yet to tell me one single thing Donald does better than prime Watt. El Ramster, I refuse to believe your reading comprehension is that bad. You're purposely misinterpreting what I'm saying to create an argument for yourself. JJ in his prime was the best at stopping the run, he was the best pass rushing D-lineman at rushing the pass rusher, he was the best at beating double teams, and he was the best D-lineman at disrupting the pass, and he won Defensive MVP 3 out of 4 years.

So how about instead of making a stupid response like I think [great player] is better than [elite player] because of height, just tell me ONE SINGLE MEASURABLE THING that Aaron Donald does better than JJ in his prime. 

[MSURacerDT55]

21 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

 

Every response to me has been something like "lol dumb" but you have yet to tell me one single thing Donald does better than prime Watt. El Ramster, I refuse to believe your reading comprehension is that bad. You're purposely misinterpreting what I'm saying to create an argument for yourself. JJ in his prime was the best at stopping the run, he was the best pass rushing D-lineman at rushing the pass rusher, he was the best at beating double teams, and he was the best D-lineman at disrupting the pass, and he won Defensive MVP 3 out of 4 years.

So how about instead of making a stupid response like I think [great player] is better than [elite player] because of height, just tell me ONE SINGLE MEASURABLE THING that Aaron Donald does better than JJ in his prime. 

Still an incredibly dumb comment, Dropping career achievements won't erase it, sorry