3rivers Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 3 hours ago, warfelg said: Also said he isn't opposed to adding assistant head coaches. I think MM might be in like for that type of title. tomlin - cheerleader MM - legit HC how about: tomlin : DC MM- HC 21 minutes ago, warfelg said: where is the "don't like" icon tho click I would prefer to let G.Willams have a chance instead of butler, we know butler has failed too often. If Williams is set on 4-3, then there would be roster moves to accommodate that and I doubt it happens. Result: another year of the same, with perhaps a new starter and if lucky, 2 starters. Then have a run stuffing LB cover an elite WR1 on the deciding play of the game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 hours ago, warfelg said: So long story short I was right that day basically fired James Saxon and Joey Porter to say that they actually need changes but they're not actually going to make any changes that mean a damn thing. It makes me feel a lot differently about Mike Tomlin given that it sounds like he is unwilling to fire Keith Butler. I will be absolutely shocked if we don't see a hell of a lot of the very same next year with his freaking defense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Allow me to take this one step further. If we missed the playoffs next year because of poor defense Mike Tomlin should be fired just for the principle of not firing Keith Butler this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rivers Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 56 minutes ago, wwhickok said: So long story short I was right that day basically fired James Saxon and Joey Porter to say that they actually need changes but they're not actually going to make any changes that mean a damn thing. It makes me feel a lot differently about Mike Tomlin given that it sounds like he is unwilling to fire Keith Butler. I will be absolutely shocked if we don't see a hell of a lot of the very same next year with his freaking defense how do you know tomlin s to blame though. the problem with us being on the outside is we don't know who to blame. I'm starting to se this as a waste of time, because what happens good/bad is of unknown origin anyways. 57 minutes ago, wwhickok said: I will be absolutely shocked if we don't see a hell of a lot of the very same next year with his freaking defense Maybe you will but I doubt I will. I don't like the direction this team has been in and it's getting worse. Butler is a part of the problem, but they also need to hit on UFA and the draft and ship out some players. Then of course they have a washed up QB they are going to keep instead of the best WR over the last 6 years. Reaching the breaking point, it could be a few years before they actually turn it around and win a few playoff games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 hours ago, wwhickok said: Allow me to take this one step further. If we missed the playoffs next year because of poor defense Mike Tomlin should be fired just for the principle of not firing Keith Butler this year So we should make a change just for the sake of making it? Im not against replacing Butler, but lets not act like Butler is underachieving with the talent he has been given. With the talent he has had on defense, especially after losing Shazier, we should really wonder how this team hasnt been dead last in defense the last 2 years. Lets just take an honest look.... DE: Heyward and Tuitt are, undoubtedly, the strongest part of the defense.....but neither are elite. Tuitt has too many ups and downs. DT: Hargrave...average at best. Would be a very good rotational player but he shouldnt be starting. DLine Depth: Average at best. OLB Dupree....trash. Sucks as a run defender....sucks in coverage....below average pass rusher. Bad player with occasional flashes of decency. OLB Watt....Good and getting better, but disappears too often. Needs to play with more consistency. ILB: Below average....maybe average at the very best. LB depth : A joke CB Haden - Pretty good CB Hilton . - Okay....better at blitzing. Cover skills are average. Every other CB is garbage. Safeties are both below average. Havent had average or better safety play in at least 5 years. Absolutely no depth in the secondary. ZERO playmakers on defense!!!! Shazier was our closest to that, and he is done. Does anyone want to disagree with my assessment of the defensive talent over the last several years? So, while Im not giving Butler a pass, Im seriously wondering what some of you think a new DC is going to do with the talent we have on defense. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 hours ago, 3rivers said: how do you know tomlin s to blame though. the problem with us being on the outside is we don't know who to blame. I'm starting to se this as a waste of time, because what happens good/bad is of unknown origin anyways. Maybe you will but I doubt I will. I don't like the direction this team has been in and it's getting worse. Butler is a part of the problem, but they also need to hit on UFA and the draft and ship out some players. Then of course they have a washed up QB they are going to keep instead of the best WR over the last 6 years. Reaching the breaking point, it could be a few years before they actually turn it around and win a few playoff games. Yeah I should rephrase that I'm not necessarily pointing the finger at Mike Tomlin specifically but at the organization as a whole I don't know who's to blame yes Keith Butler doesn't get fired I'm just a believer that it's overdue. Now maybe I'm completely wrong in maybe it's a culture problem. So maybe with Joey Porter out of the door and maybe a strong personality which I really really hope is Kevin green maybe we see a change in culture a change in focus and a change in level of play. I can't help but feel like some of that thought is naivety though. I'm still a believer that Jerry olshansky should have been let go as well. At that point you give Jim Herman the inside linebacker coach roll and you give Kevin Greene the outside linebacker role. I'm also a believer that maybe we need two coaches coaching the secondary. I have no doubt that is over ago but I would go one step further and let Tom Bradley hire his own assistance secondary coach. The reason I feel like there should just be two guys at those two positions is because I feel like if everybody gets on the same page as far as coaching and then they break down how many guys they have to coach maybe the messages will flow smoother because you're not trying to coach a multitude of guys all at once. Now I'm probably wrong on my mentality here because first of all I've never coached football so what I am actually suggesting maybe a case of too many chiefs and not enough Indians. But what I'm trying to get at is I would not have an issue with individual coaches coaching specific positions because specific position to supposed to do a certain thing what I'm saying is outside linebackers are going to be doing something different than inside linebackers safety is going to be doing something different than corners in our defense there's no reason to have a defense of end and defensive tackle coach the reason I say that because it sounds silly out loud is that I'm suggesting more than one coach for other positions and on the defensive line we had two different positions but in our defense at least at the very least we have so few positions on the field at one time on the defensive line that there is absolutely no reason to have more than one coach there. And more importantly the three guys that are our starters at this positions play the majority of snaps and I feel like their job is pretty simple in terms of the things that they need to be able to do. I buy simple I mean I feel like there is a little bit less to learn a little bit less responsibility they don't really have to worry about coverage and what not I mean it's not very often you see a defensive tackle or a defensive end dropping back into coverage I'm not saying it doesn't happen it's just not typical. With all of that said I still feel very strongly that Keith Butler and Danny Smith should be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said: So we should make a change just for the sake of making it? Im not against replacing Butler, but lets not act like Butler is underachieving with the talent he has been given. With the talent he has had on defense, especially after losing Shazier, we should really wonder how this team hasnt been dead last in defense the last 2 years. Lets just take an honest look.... DE: Heyward and Tuitt are, undoubtedly, the strongest part of the defense.....but neither are elite. Tuitt has too many ups and downs. DT: Hargrave...average at best. Would be a very good rotational player but he shouldnt be starting. DLine Depth: Average at best. OLB Dupree....trash. Sucks as a run defender....sucks in coverage....below average pass rusher. Bad player with occasional flashes of decency. OLB Watt....Good and getting better, but disappears too often. Needs to play with more consistency. ILB: Below average....maybe average at the very best. LB depth : A joke CB Haden - Pretty good CB Hilton . - Okay....better at blitzing. Cover skills are average. Every other CB is garbage. Safeties are both below average. Havent had average or better safety play in at least 5 years. Absolutely no depth in the secondary. ZERO playmakers on defense!!!! Shazier was our closest to that, and he is done. Does anyone want to disagree with my assessment of the defensive talent over the last several years? So, while Im not giving Butler a pass, Im seriously wondering what some of you think a new DC is going to do with the talent we have on defense. In fact I completely agree with your assessment. My issue with Keith Butler is not the talent on the field. Because he's not to blame for that he has no choice but to coach it. My issue with Keith Butler is some of his defensive play calls at times and the way he is using people like for example Vince Williams covering a wide receiver downfield how many times did we see that this season I mean come on. He seems almost incapable of figuring out how to cover a tight end. Our defense lacks Talent there's no denying that and a new defensive coordinator isn't going to miraculously change that I completely agree. However I do feel that it's possible a new defensive coordinator we'll come up with better game plans and that is where I feel like Keith Butler deserves to get fired. Our defense is capable despite the lack of talent of playing very well the proof is in a few games this season where they did so now I would argue that the games in which they played really well they were not necessarily playing top-notch teams with the exception of the New England Patriots game. But at the end of the day they showed the ability to play well and I feel in those games what we were doing defensively was different then all of the other games where our defense is playing like crap anytime that we went back to the types of game plans that we were running again all four AFC West teams we ended up losing now I'm not a strategist so I can't sit here and break down all of the film and tell you exactly what they were doing what I can tell you is just watching the game things felt and looked different to me. Most of it is about lack of talent but even if our defense is talented and I could be wrong I'm willing to accept the fact that I may very well be wrong but even if we had more Talent on defense I personally do not trust Keith Butler to be able to use that talent in the way it deserves to be used. I'm not a member of the Pittsburgh Steelers I don't know everything that goes on in everything that is said in the locker room or in the front office if I'm certainly not in the film rooms and on the practice field when they are developing these game plans but as a fan and that being a big key there is that I'm just a fan when I watch these games and I honestly find myself confused if x when I see people like Vince Williams running down field trying to cover a wide receiver or whatever like some of these scenarios that we have all complained about I just I don't understand it and there are also times where we've seen the defensive completely lost into me this is a communication problem and maybe Keith Butler isn't responsible for that maybe it's just a communication problem between the players on the field I don't know the answer to that but it do you know the common denominator is Keith Butler. Well I say I know I believe. I apologize ahead of time for any typos I has been using voice text so my auto-fill is pretty stupid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Well, at least it's looking like Munch is staying put. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 I did listen to the podcast, and she spent far far longer talking about the Ben stuff than the Tomlin, because after the Tomlin statement she did say that they ultimately do trust him. Sounds like Ben is more the issue than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I never particularly liked Ben, so I'm not totally against either trading him or letting him walk after 2019. I know what that might mean, but between his declining play and poor leadership, the writing is on the wall. Will it happen? No, since top QBs are given a lot of slack, but if his nonsense is becoming that much of a distraction, move on. Which in turn will probably lead to the definitive end of Tomlin in Pittsburgh when his contract is up. Blow it up for all I care. Probably isn't far off either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 @FourThreeMafia While I appreciate your insight you give to the Butler situation, I do disagree about him making the most of what he's been given. A good set of defensive coaches will look at what strengths guys do bring to the table and use them in that way. Like Take Dupree. I know you dislike him, but he's an athletic freak in many ways. So why has he been an edge setter? Why not use him to mirror athletic QB's? We know Davis struggles in zone, but when he's playing in traffic near the LOS he's actually useful, so why isn't he in that area more often? I could keep going through, but it almost seems like Butler and the defensive staff decide to take the players best asset and NOT use it. It's why I say stuff like you can tell when Tomlin has a finger on the defense. Take the Pats game. We used DB's to funnel Gronk/Edelman into the middle of the field and zoned the LB's and a cover 3 behind it to contain them. Gronk and Edelman had TERRIBLE games. Against the Saints they did a similar thing with Mike Thomas and Alvin Kamara, and it almost worked there. But then in the first game against the Browns and the Oakland game. No wrinkles. Defense got beat by teams that shouldn't because their offenses suck. Bland defense against the Chargers game because with no Gordon and no Henry, it was on Rivers to beat us. And instead of making him beat us, we let their matchups dictate the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August4th Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 38 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said: Blow it up for all I care. Probably isn't far off either way. hopefully its in time for us to land Trevor Lawernce /Tank4trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Does anybody else have interest in Thomas Davis? I have spoken about this before in the past about needing to add a guy that provides leadership on defense. This is your guy in my opinion. Thomas Davis still definitely in my opinion has plenty to offer talent-wise and he is a very good personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, wwhickok said: Does anybody else have interest in Thomas Davis? I have spoken about this before in the past about needing to add a guy that provides leadership on defense. This is your guy in my opinion. Thomas Davis still definitely in my opinion has plenty to offer talent-wise and he is a very good personality. he is 36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, jebrick said: he is 36 Wouldn't be the first time and because he is I believe his contract could be well like I said I feel like we need a veteran presence in the locker room a guy that can be a leader he doesn't need to be in every down linebacker. I talked about this a couple months ago I think about possibly going out and getting a guy on a reasonable contract to add much-needed leadership on defense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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