2019 Steelers offseason news

[Dcash4]

11 hours ago, Chieferific said:

 There are what I would call traditional 3-4s left in the NFL. Meaning Fat guys in the middle eating up blockers. Some of which are still playing in the Post Season. 

There are? The colts, cowboys, and the eagles run a 4-3. The Saints and Pats are as flexible as they need to be. The Chiefs don’t employ a defense. The Chargers just won a playoff game running nothing but dime. The Rams do run a 3-4, but it’s far from traditional with Suh and Donald. 

None if these defenses win with “fat guys”.  The Rams “win” with dominant athletes on the line. The colts win with athletes and coaching. The Chargers? Athletes. Hell, the cowboys changed their drafting because their d was too unathletic and just took athlete after athlete since then. 

There is a theme with the defenses in the playoffs, and it’s not 3-4 or fat guys. They are all modern, athletic defenses. The more traditionally run 3-4 Texans and ravens got to take their ball and go home. 

I’m going to say it again, because it honestly confuses me...I don’t know why we keep looking to the past to defend he future of offenses, and we really only do it at NT. People criticis Vince Williams and bostic (who actually had a decent year) because they are not athletic enough to cover up today’s offenses. The same would go for Willie gay at corner or a Ryan Clark at saftey - they would fail in today’s NFL. But NT? Nooo, no athletes for me there! Big ol’ fat people only. 

I mentioned it earlier but the idea that you would even plan on a defense sitting in base is mind boggling. 11 personnel on almost 60% of plays. Thats three receivers on the field the majority of the time, and that’s only 1 position grouping. 1st and 2nd down are no longer run downs, and the horizontal passing game is used as a substitute for the run game in the short/screen world. 

Offenses are putting more and more athletes on the field. They are getting guys into space and creating mismatches. Defenses are, and need too, adjust accordingly.

The triangle offense in the NBA is no longer effective. No one runs the power I anymore in football. It’s okay that we evolve away from “traditional” base defenses. And frankly, you need too. 

[edit: just saw a stat that they Steelers were in sub packages nearly 80% of the time this year. Just wondering how much of an effect Casey Hampton would even have on this team]

Edited January 12, 2019 by Dcash4

[3rivers]

the 2 gap fat DL has been history for a while. This game now is more about a fast DL that CAN also play like the old fat DL.  While it was true way back that the key to a 3-4 was the fat NT, that has since been replaced with various other more successful ways in favour of pass rushing as the priority and backing that up with decent run support.  It's the way the game has changed,  various NT taken in the draft early have proved there is no value there.  try Shelton for example, bring him in on a low price and see how that goes.

I would rather go to a 4 man front and keep the best players out there unless they need a rest. Dropping your best edge rusher into coverage while a mediocre edge rusher is pass rushing is useless as we have seen. If they know what they have for the pass rush , then they will be able to decide on what they need at ILB for coverage responsibilities (speed and range) . Right now this team is all over the place to the point where butler has bostic covering K.Allen on the 3rd and 7 in the game deciding play 

[VigilantZombie]

You know I keep hearing that there's a theme in the playoff in regards to defense. So let me share my own opinion here.

Let's talk about the teams left in the playoffs.

The New England Patriots: mediocre defense

Indianapolis Colts: do they even play defense?

New Orleans Saints: they score a lot of points offensively but let me tell you given some of the really high scoring games they've had this season I'm pretty sure they don't play much defense down there in Louisiana

Kansas City Chiefs: they've got a defense good enough to win them games I'm not sure that they have a defense good enough to win them important games.

Philadelphia Eagles: I would say their front seven is legit but I would also say the secondary is terrible.

Dallas Cowboys: and okay I'll be at mediocre defense

Los Angeles Chargers: excellent secondary the front seven leaves a bit to be desired but they are capable of big play.

Los Angeles Rams: best defense remaining in the playoffs

No let's talk about a couple of teams that have already been eliminated.

Chicago Bears: best defense in the league in my opinion and they still couldn't beat the Eagles.

Baltimore Ravens: statistically one of the best defenses in the league and they got blown out the final score does not tell the entire story of this game.

So here's what I'm getting at people want to talk about how good the defenses are in the playoffs and how they're not the traditional 3-4 defenses but really see one defense left in the playoffs is legitimately good and that is the Rams and then you've got the charger that's who might have the next best defense. Maybe they are not the traditional 3-4 defenses but the best defenses in the league are not even in the playoffs anymore and some of them didn't even make the playoffs

[Chieferific]

4 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

There are? The colts, cowboys, and the eagles run a 4-3. The Saints and Pats are as flexible as they need to be. The Chiefs don’t employ a defense. The Chargers just won a playoff game running nothing but dime. The Rams do run a 3-4, but it’s far from traditional with Suh and Donald. 

None if these defenses win with “fat guys”.  The Rams “win” with dominant athletes on the line. The colts win with athletes and coaching. The Chargers? Athletes. Hell, the cowboys changed their drafting because their d was too unathletic and just took athlete after athlete since then. 

There is a theme with the defenses in the playoffs, and it’s not 3-4 or fat guys. They are all modern, athletic defenses. The more traditionally run 3-4 Texans and ravens got to take their ball and go home. 

I’m going to say it again, because it honestly confuses me...I don’t know why we keep looking to the past to defend he future of offenses, and we really only do it at NT. People criticis Vince Williams and bostic (who actually had a decent year) because they are not athletic enough to cover up today’s offenses. The same would go for Willie gay at corner or a Ryan Clark at saftey - they would fail in today’s NFL. But NT? Nooo, no athletes for me there! Big ol’ fat people only. 

I mentioned it earlier but the idea that you would even plan on a defense sitting in base is mind boggling. 11 personnel on almost 60% of plays. Thats three receivers on the field the majority of the time, and that’s only 1 position grouping. 1st and 2nd down are no longer run downs, and the horizontal passing game is used as a substitute for the run game in the short/screen world. 

Offenses are putting more and more athletes on the field. They are getting guys into space and creating mismatches. Defenses are, and need too, adjust accordingly.

The triangle offense in the NBA is no longer effective. No one runs the power I anymore in football. It’s okay that we evolve away from “traditional” base defenses. And frankly, you need too. 

[edit: just saw a stat that they Steelers were in sub packages nearly 80% of the time this year. Just wondering how much of an effect Casey Hampton would even have on this team]

I hear all of that and don't even disagree with some of it but I've yet to here why the Traditional won't work. You keep saying "Today's" game and old Defenses don't work. How long have the 4-3/Nickle/Dime been around? The Traditional 3-4 is the only one that doesn't translate? Why in "Today's" game won't it work? I've shown why it would. Please explain why it won't. Why is it better for a 300lb Man to run horizontally instead of a 250lb Man fill the Gap? And I'd consider The Chiefs, Pats, Chargers and maybe the Saints playing a more Traditional 3-4 but that's the thing...IT IS MORE flexible. Obviously it based on the opponents' personnel. 

Edited January 12, 2019 by Chieferific

[warfelg]

I kinda want to dispel this idea that teams don't have a "big fatty" anymore:

KC - Xavier Williams 310, Allen Bailey 290

Indy - Marcus Hunt 300

LAR - Michael Brockers 305

Dallas - Antwaun Woods 315, Maliek Collins 308

Philly - Fletcher Cox 310, Haloti Ngata 340, Tim Jernigan 300

NO - Tyler Davison 310, Sheldon Rankings 305

NE - Lawrence Guy 315

LAC - Brandon MeBane 310

The 4 in bold are the only 4 that are taller than 6'2".

You still need a squat stout guy on the DL no matter if you play a 3-4 or a 4-3. They can play end (like Bailey, Brokers) in a 3-4, or they could be the UT/1T/NT in the 4-3.  But they still all have that guy.

[Dcash4]

 

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

I kinda want to dispel this idea that teams don't have a "big fatty" anymore:

KC - Xavier Williams 310, Allen Bailey 290

Indy - Marcus Hunt 300

LAR - Michael Brockers 305

Dallas - Antwaun Woods 315, Maliek Collins 308

Philly - Fletcher Cox 310, Haloti Ngata 340, Tim Jernigan 300

NO - Tyler Davison 310, Sheldon Rankings 305

NE - Lawrence Guy 315

LAC - Brandon MeBane 310

The 4 in bold are the only 4 that are taller than 6'2".

You still need a squat stout guy on the DL no matter if you play a 3-4 or a 4-3. They can play end (like Bailey, Brokers) in a 3-4, or they could be the UT/1T/NT in the 4-3.  But they still all have that guy.

You can have anyone from the Chiefs defense...patriots too for the most part.

Margus Hunt is 6’8 300lb 3-4 DE that was moved inside in the Colts 4-3 and they ask their guys penetrate, and he has succeeded because of his athleticism. But he is known more for rushing.

Fletcher Cox and Sheldon Rankins are freaks and pass rushers.

The Dallas duo are also asked to be explosive and disruptive, not hold double teams.

The Eagles got better the less Haloti Ngata played. 

If 300lbs is the cut off, we employ 3 between Hargrave, Tuitt, and Heyward (he counts at 295 if Hunt counts).

Im not sayin fat people don’t exist, but all of these guys are asked to attack in their defenses, not occupy space like seems to be the general thought about our NT position. Hargrave does what they do too, and he was good at it. 

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by Dcash4

[jebrick]

Like Brandon Williams 6'1 336?

Malcolm Brown 6'2 320?

Tim Settle 6'3 328

Daron Payne 6'2 320

Now Al Wood was the NT for the Colts until he was injured.  6'3 330

The first 2 are from hybrid defense and play 2 gap

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by jebrick

[43M]

I don't care about having a fat guy at nose tackle... I just want someone better than Hargrave. He isn't starter quality, and that's all there is to it... Regardless of what type of nose tackle you prefer.

[VigilantZombie]

1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I don't care about having a fat guy at nose tackle... I just want someone better than Hargrave. He isn't starter quality, and that's all there is to it... Regardless of what type of nose tackle you prefer.

This is truth. He is, in terms of positional quality, comparable to Chris Hoke imo

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I don't care about having a fat guy at nose tackle... I just want someone better than Hargrave. He isn't starter quality, and that's all there is to it... Regardless of what type of nose tackle you prefer.

I tried, man. I tried to find someone, something - outside of this board who long for the days of Casey Hampton - that agree with you. I googled everything from javon Hargrave awful to Javon Hargrave sucks. I checked reddit, Twitter, even AOL away messages. 

I came up empty. 

I only found people praising his play. Talking about how improved he is. How he is an up and coming star. Seeing videos of him whooping people. 

And I don’t mean to go THAT far, but there must be something...ANYTHING...that you can hang your hat on that confirms your stance. Not just the “and that’s the bottom line because 43 said so”. Statistically, it must be in your favor. Maybe we DO run base defense more than 30% of the time. Maybe the NFL isn’t passing at an all time high rate. 

You just gotta give me something, man. Enlighten me, educate me, sell me...just anything more than an opinion...if that’s all there is to it. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Dcash4

[warfelg]

Like I said, Hargrave is a fine player, but his play was it's best when he replaced Tuitt who went out with injury and took his position on the field.  Where we were luck is that's when Burnett came back from injury to make the 2-4-5 work.  But when it comes to lining up at the 0T or 1T and occupying 2 blockers to open a lane for Bostic/Williams to fill against the run, Hargrave struggles.

Look at that Dallas game last night:

No one on the Dallas front 2-gapped, especially in the middle, so the LAR were able to spring a OG/OC onto Smith/Lee/Vander Esch.  Then they got a FB/TE/HBack hat on another LB, and all Anderson had to do was run away from the third one and beat a safety.

 

As much as football changes and evolves, some things will still remain true.  Needing a 2-gap interior DL to keep your MIKE/MACK/BUCK clean so they can make plays against the run is one of those things that's still true.

[warfelg]

And I want to add to my last point there:

As much as some people think that the NFL has changed, it's really stayed the same.  Like take a staple play from the Peyton Manning era: Stretch OT run with an inside zone.  Basically a 1 cut run off the outside of the OT's shoulder.  Edge James made a living off that play.  It's still there, but not in that form.  Now you see it as the double-go, RB flair under.  It's the exact same idea: Get the RB on the edge where 1 cut means 5-7 yards.  The difference is they found the double-go element and passing it to the RB means a few things.  (1) The RB is in some great space to run from. (2) Eliminates a bunch of things that can go wrong. (3) If the defense jumps the RB you got an open fly to throw to.  

Same thing for defense.  Things may look different but in the end it's all still the same.  How many teams still run a Mike Fire Blitz?  Every single one of them.  Difference?  Mike isn't always coming from the Mike position, it's not always the actual Mike coming.  Think of Baltimore when everyone is up on the line.  It's still the Mike Fire Blitz, but they are better able to hide it, and every now and then it's the SS coming from the Mike position on the Blitz.

Certain concepts and elements will ALWAYS exist in the NFL no matter how much changes with the rules and which one works better.  

[jebrick]

Not sure if this has made the rounds.  Emmanuel Sanders talking on NFL network about the AB situation.  Just me but Ben's lack of leadership is the cause of a lot of these issues.  AB is not blameless but Bendid things to drive AB away.

 

 

[warfelg]

18 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Not sure if this has made the rounds.  Emmanuel Sanders talking on NFL network about the AB situation.  Just me but Ben's lack of leadership is the cause of a lot of these issues.  AB is not blameless but Bendid things to drive AB away.

 

 

Most would agree with your take. 

[August4th]

Ben should end his radio show tbh(doubt it impacts the team on the field, but still..)