G Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 7 hours ago, big_palooka said: Just curious why you care what his contract is? It's not your money and doesn't effect the salary cap. Is it the length? Yes it's the length. If things go bad were stuck with him and that affects the franchise moving forward. I'd say the contract affected Mack's contract which affected the team so it's not just the cap that has to be taken into consideration. Like running up the US debt. It isn't my money and it's all just fiat currency that we have chosen to use. Yet I have a feeling when the music stops and the 100 people realize that a lot more than one chair was removed then it will directly affect me. Something changed in me as a person and as a fan the day Mack was traded. It wasn't a good change. I could have sworn you were different back in the 2007 days and something changed over the seasons. Well my change happened specifically on the day I keep thinking it was a dream and not the nightmare of anger, hatred and wanting to tear it all down.I love this franchise so much that I hate them too. Can't really explain it better than that and unfortunately I can't seem to walk away either. So now I'm just venomous. Good news is I can admit it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 8 hours ago, G said: Yes it's the length. If things go bad were stuck with him and that affects the franchise moving forward. I'd say the contract affected Mack's contract which affected the team so it's not just the cap that has to be taken into consideration. Like running up the US debt. It isn't my money and it's all just fiat currency that we have chosen to use. Yet I have a feeling when the music stops and the 100 people realize that a lot more than one chair was removed then it will directly affect me. Something changed in me as a person and as a fan the day Mack was traded. It wasn't a good change. I could have sworn you were different back in the 2007 days and something changed over the seasons. Well my change happened specifically on the day I keep thinking it was a dream and not the nightmare of anger, hatred and wanting to tear it all down.I love this franchise so much that I hate them too. Can't really explain it better than that and unfortunately I can't seem to walk away either. So now I'm just venomous. Good news is I can admit it. In my opinion, this is a 4 year deal unless they become a really good football team and he wants it bad enough. He could easily have a couple more down years (2019 incoming) and decide it's not worth sticking around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
true2form Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 On 2/10/2019 at 10:12 AM, big_palooka said: In my opinion, this is a 4 year deal unless they become a really good football team and he wants it bad enough. He could easily have a couple more down years (2019 incoming) and decide it's not worth sticking around. Plus, I'm pretty sure no one knows how the contract is setup. Is the total value $100 mill? Is it bonuses and incentives that need to be reached? Is there an out for either side? I guess it's standard for Raiders fans to just assume the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StocktonSav Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 On 2/10/2019 at 7:12 AM, big_palooka said: In my opinion, this is a 4 year deal unless they become a really good football team and he wants it bad enough. He could easily have a couple more down years (2019 incoming) and decide it's not worth sticking around. Yea I'd day 4-5 years sounds right. I expect him to give it 2-3 years once they're in Vegas to see if the team can get where he wants them to be. 53 minutes ago, true2form said: Plus, I'm pretty sure no one knows how the contract is setup. Is the total value $100 mill? Is it bonuses and incentives that need to be reached? Is there an out for either side? I guess it's standard for Raiders fans to just assume the worst. Generally head coach contracts are fully guaranteed or close to it. (There's some interesting write ups from not too long ago about Chip Kelly cashing in from both the Eagles and 49ers because of his guaranteed contracts with both.) My assumption has always been that Gruden's is as well. The lengthy term and record payout were necessary to coax Gruden from ESPN. Wouldn't make sense if he settled for an incentive-heavy contract. Would seem to defeat the purpose. Especially given that it was clearly a rebuild job from the outset. But you're right, no one knows for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickButera Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 I'll probably get flak for this, but I'm surprised so many see him as a failed first year. Expectations were pretty high. I guess it this year really comes down to two things yet to be seen. Who's decision was it, really, to trade Mack and Cooper. And who does he replace them with/how do we look with all his assets this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 On 11/02/2019 at 7:14 PM, NickButera said: I'll probably get flak for this, but I'm surprised so many see him as a failed first year. Expectations were pretty high. I guess it this year really comes down to two things yet to be seen. Who's decision was it, really, to trade Mack and Cooper. And who does he replace them with/how do we look with all his assets this year. Whilst it’s true that he does have a very large, very long secure contract I also can’t help but feel if we have another terrible year this next season the fan pressure will mount exponentially. He’s taken it upon himself to launch into a rebuild and though he probably reasons it will take a few years I’m not so sure the bulk of Raider Nation will have so much patience. Especially as we appeared to have the two major building blocks already in place. I think it puts Gruden under some pressure, he’s traded away a potential HoF player and even though we have draft picks the pressure will be on them to perform at a decent level right away. Imagine if we draft with the Mack picks a couple guys like Conley and Miller for example, whereby Conley although a potentially great player was a non factor his rookie year and Miller is all potential who had a bad rookie season (I should clarify I actually like both these players but their first years were very tough on the team). What would be the fan reaction if we got basically zero production from these rookies? How patient would Mark Davis be under intense fan pressure to have a promotable product to take to Las Vegas? How would Gruden take the criticism that’s bound to pile up from the media? He’s going to be scrutinised and criticised more than the average coach for obvious reasons. Whilst he technically has job security and a long term contract with an owner who idolises him another terrible season could be very hard to rationalise, I feel we have to see substantial improvement and growth at the very least. With a QB already in place there is no real excuse to drag a rebuild out for 3 seasons IMHO, not with the draft capital and cap space we have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 On 11/02/2019 at 6:14 PM, NickButera said: I'll probably get flak for this, but I'm surprised so many see him as a failed first year. Expectations were pretty high. I guess it this year really comes down to two things yet to be seen. Who's decision was it, really, to trade Mack and Cooper. And who does he replace them with/how do we look with all his assets this year. I don’t think anyone thinks it was Reggies idea to trade Mack. This was all Gruden and/or Davis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 On 2/13/2019 at 2:43 AM, Darbsk said: Whilst it’s true that he does have a very large, very long secure contract I also can’t help but feel if we have another terrible year this next season the fan pressure will mount exponentially. He’s taken it upon himself to launch into a rebuild and though he probably reasons it will take a few years I’m not so sure the bulk of Raider Nation will have so much patience. Especially as we appeared to have the two major building blocks already in place. I think it puts Gruden under some pressure, he’s traded away a potential HoF player and even though we have draft picks the pressure will be on them to perform at a decent level right away. Imagine if we draft with the Mack picks a couple guys like Conley and Miller for example, whereby Conley although a potentially great player was a non factor his rookie year and Miller is all potential who had a bad rookie season (I should clarify I actually like both these players but their first years were very tough on the team). What would be the fan reaction if we got basically zero production from these rookies? How patient would Mark Davis be under intense fan pressure to have a promotable product to take to Las Vegas? How would Gruden take the criticism that’s bound to pile up from the media? He’s going to be scrutinised and criticised more than the average coach for obvious reasons. Whilst he technically has job security and a long term contract with an owner who idolises him another terrible season could be very hard to rationalise, I feel we have to see substantial improvement and growth at the very least. With a QB already in place there is no real excuse to drag a rebuild out for 3 seasons IMHO, not with the draft capital and cap space we have. 6 I'm tired of appearances. Facts are that we were mediocre at best under Mckenzie. 1 playoff appearance in 6 years is bad. I'm not saying it's all on Mckenzie, but the results speak for themselves. Considering how dysfunctional and unsuccessful this organization has been, I applaud Gruden for trying to build it the right way and hiring Mayock as GM, which is boom or bust. Frankly I don't think he cares about the fan reaction. Clearly this team isn't very good right now. I don't think these draft picks are going to feel any of that pressure here. Thats an overly drawn out narrative. We traded mack for 24 million in cap and the picks. Not just the picks. Thinking the goal of the picks is to "replace mack" in any way (not saying you're saying this but media are) is also inane. We are TEAM BUILDING. Good players at lots of positions and depth throughout. That takes time and smart investments. That being said, there's a good chance we can make substantial improvements. If we can lure some reasonably good tier 2 free agents with cash (again money talks and Vegas taxes) and find some players. The draft is a given. Gruden brought Mayock in to find players. Our drafts have been pretty underwhelming on day 2 and we've been unable to build a good young core. We have 6 picks in the top 100, 4 in the top 35. Hit rates are reasonably good in that range. If we can't hit these picks, the future won't matter anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 On 15/02/2019 at 1:38 AM, MrOaktown_56 said: I'm tired of appearances. Facts are that we were mediocre at best under Mckenzie. 1 playoff appearance in 6 years is bad. I'm not saying it's all on Mckenzie, but the results speak for themselves. Considering how dysfunctional and unsuccessful this organization has been, I applaud Gruden for trying to build it the right way and hiring Mayock as GM, which is boom or bust. Frankly I don't think he cares about the fan reaction. Clearly this team isn't very good right now. I don't think these draft picks are going to feel any of that pressure here. Thats an overly drawn out narrative. We traded mack for 24 million in cap and the picks. Not just the picks. Thinking the goal of the picks is to "replace mack" in any way (not saying you're saying this but media are) is also inane. We are TEAM BUILDING. Good players at lots of positions and depth throughout. That takes time and smart investments. That being said, there's a good chance we can make substantial improvements. If we can lure some reasonably good tier 2 free agents with cash (again money talks and Vegas taxes) and find some players. The draft is a given. Gruden brought Mayock in to find players. Our drafts have been pretty underwhelming on day 2 and we've been unable to build a good young core. We have 6 picks in the top 100, 4 in the top 35. Hit rates are reasonably good in that range. If we can't hit these picks, the future won't matter anyway. Disagree in part, agree in part! In my eyes, we at long last appeared to be getting functional and accruing some success. You see one playoff appearance in 6 I see the first playoff appearance since 2002 after a complete and utter teardown with the chance at multiple playoff births as we had our foundation on both sides. I agree we traded Mack for 24m and the picks but since the bulk of that 24m will most probably be spent on a replacement pass rusher, possibly up to around 18m then we effectively downgraded the DE spot, got rid of our defensive leader for 6m and a couple rookies who may or may not pan out. I agree that we are team building now but if it was me would have tried to build the team with 2 keystone pieces in place, even though I appreciate it is more difficult with significantly more money tied up in the cap for Mack. I think it's much harder to find a star than a few decent role players so when you find a start you keep him and try and compliment them in the draft and FA rather than the other way round. Listen, if Mack was the only bad move we've made then fair enough, I'd give Gruden a lot of leeway and slack and be prepared to believe that he wasn't totally responsible for the scenario arising in the first place. But, he's compounded that with terrible trades (McCarron and Bryant), underwhelming FA signings, perplexing player roles and a multitude of what can best be described as 'bending the truth' to both fans and players. Reggie could have drafted much better it's true and of course we do have some promising rookies now, the acid test will be in the following 2 drafts I feel and Gruden really should care what the fan base thinks as they have the power to force a change. We really need to start turning this around right now. If he's the coach that's worth 100m the he simply has to perform. He has to win big and win quick or he will be a failure. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) On 15/02/2019 at 12:38 AM, MrOaktown_56 said: I'm tired of appearances. Facts are that we were mediocre at best under Mckenzie. 1 playoff appearance in 6 years is bad. I'm not saying it's all on Mckenzie, but the results speak for themselves. Considering how dysfunctional and unsuccessful this organization has been, I applaud Gruden for trying to build it the right way and hiring Mayock as GM, which is boom or bust. Frankly I don't think he cares about the fan reaction. Clearly this team isn't very good right now. I don't think these draft picks are going to feel any of that pressure here. Thats an overly drawn out narrative. We traded mack for 24 million in cap and the picks. Not just the picks. Thinking the goal of the picks is to "replace mack" in any way (not saying you're saying this but media are) is also inane. We are TEAM BUILDING. Good players at lots of positions and depth throughout. That takes time and smart investments. That being said, there's a good chance we can make substantial improvements. If we can lure some reasonably good tier 2 free agents with cash (again money talks and Vegas taxes) and find some players. The draft is a given. Gruden brought Mayock in to find players. Our drafts have been pretty underwhelming on day 2 and we've been unable to build a good young core. We have 6 picks in the top 100, 4 in the top 35. Hit rates are reasonably good in that range. If we can't hit these picks, the future won't matter anyway. This time last year you were blaming JDR & the coaching staff and that coaching alone would improve the team by 2-3 wins and we would be looking at a 10-6 record. Now you are saying we were mediocre and dysfunctional?? If you think we were dysfunctional before Gruden arrived, I’d love to know what you think we are now given the last 12 months shambles. Edited February 16, 2019 by Dessie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 4 hours ago, Dessie said: This time last year you were blaming JDR & the coaching staff and that coaching alone would improve the team by 2-3 wins and we would be looking at a 10-6 record. Now you are saying we were mediocre and dysfunctional?? If you think we were dysfunctional before Gruden arrived, I’d love to know what you think we are now given the last 12 months shambles. Who hired JDR? Our draft picks sucked. I didn't want to believe it. But at some point, you have to swallow the pill and take an objective look back. We thought the team could turn the corner, but they couldn't. Mckenzie is responsible, as is JDR moreso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jono77 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 I would give him a B. I think the Mack trade hurt, but the extra 2 first round picks, plus top of the first with our own pick helps. The team had a lot of holes coming in, it is painful to lose your best player and struggle, but the team didn’t just Mail it in. I would rather have a rough first /second season and actually turn it around with the players Gruden wants in place rather then have a few 8-8 seasons and be in perpetual rebuild mode. I still think the first for cooper is a great trade for us 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Gruden looking like a genius for getting mike may 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 10 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said: Gruden looking like a genius for getting mike may Mayock really forced us to get much younger on both sides of the ball. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 2 hours ago, NYRaider said: Mayock really forced us to get much younger on both sides of the ball. Fa haul was definitely a pleasant surprise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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