JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Watson was being considered as a borderline MVP candidate half way through the season last year. I didn't say Hopkins couldn't produce without Watson Quote Seriously, do you even remember anything you have argued at all in this thread. This was your response to my post earlier. Now, you're back tracking again.........so which is it. 7 hours ago, tyler735 said: Quote 5) Nuk can produce regardless who is throwing him the ball and regardless who covering him. Even against some of best coverage guys in the league." As another poster put it, Hopkins struggled when Osweiler was QB in 2016, which is to be expected, but still discredits the notion that he can still produce regardless of who is throwing to him as he had under 1,000 receiving yards (954 receiving yards- 29th best in the NFL) and 4 touchdowns that season. With better QB play, Hopkins has undoubtedly beat some of the best coverage guys in the league, but so has Michael Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 hours ago, tyler735 said: Obviously statistics tell only part of the story, but at the very least in many ways he is putting up elite stats to start his career. He has also elevated his game in some of the biggest match-ups in his career. Against the Rams this year in the regular season he put up 211 receiving yards and a touchdown in what was quite possibly the biggest regular season game of the year. In the playoffs Michael Thomas has now played 3 games. He is averaging 129 receiving yards and a touchdown in each of his 3 playoff games. He's also shown he can beat top CB's such as Xavier Rhodes. I don't see how he isn't considered a top 5 WR at this point in time. As I mentioned before, I think he's closing the gap on AB, Jones, Hopkins, and Beckham. He played the Vikings 3 times in his career and has not beat Rhodes. I'd say Rhodes has gotten the better of him so far. As I mentioned earlier, he was shutdown by both Xavier and Newman in the first meeting (week 1, 2017) when he held to 5 catches, 45 yards and OTD's. The 2nd reg season game this year is a perfect example of your exact quote above about stats not telling the whole story. He had a total 5 catches, 81 yards and 0TD's for the whole game. 64 of those yards came on just 2 catches on the first drive of the game and was held to just 3 catches,17 yards the rest of the day. And neither of those catches were on Rhodes either. One was on Waynes and the other was on both Waynes and Harrison. Just an FYI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Destructo Spin said: You said it did, back a few posts ago, when you suggested that Mike Thomas's catch rate is higher than Julio's because Julio had a much higher air yard rate per reception. You're contradicting your own argument now. What on earth are you talking about? Lower depth of target means easier completions, so it adds catch rate. Thats what I said. Lower depth of target also reflects the lack of deep passes. Julio having a high depth of target does not mean he is not catching intermediate passes. High or mid level depth of target tends to mean an even spread. Unless it's really high, like near 20, then you typically have a deep specialist. You're trying to reverse the logic and that doesn't make sense. If his depth of target was like 25, you'd be right, hes only catching deep balls. That's not where it is. You're taking really odd and random logical leaps here. Like, go to PFR and pull a list of Julio's receptions. You'll still find plenty of short ones. You wont find many long ones for Thomad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 24 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Seriously, do you even remember anything you have argued at all in this thread. This was your response to my post earlier. Now, you're back tracking again.........so which is it. He didn't produce: "regardless of who was throwing to him" He wasn't that good good with Brock, which means your statement is incorrect. That's not even close to the same as me stating: "I didn't say Hopkins couldn't produce without Watson" How you connect the 2 as the same is actually a bit baffling to me as they are stating 2 entirely different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, tyler735 said: He didn't produce: "regardless of who was throwing to him" He wasn't that good good with Brock, which means your statement is incorrect. That's not even close to the same as me stating: "I didn't say Hopkins couldn't produce without Watson" How you connect the 2 as the same is actually a bit baffling to me as they are stating 2 entirely different things. If a WR can produce with Ryan FItzpatrick, Case Keenum, TJ Yates, Ryan Mallett, Brandon Weeden, Tom Savage and a rookie QB behind center. Don't you think that one year with Brock is more than likely an anomaly. How you still do not seem to understand this is beyond me. Either that or you were just arguing for the sake of arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said: BECAUSE HE RUNS FAST BRUH!!! and this is not a knock on Tyreek, hes an amazing WR, but lol at saying MT definitely isn't tier 1 but Hill is. Hill's numbers put Thomas' to absolute shame this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 17 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: He played the Vikings 3 times in his career and has not beat Rhodes. I'd say Rhodes has gotten the better of him so far. 17 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: As I mentioned earlier, he was shutdown by both Xavier and Newman in the first meeting (week 1, 2017) when he held to 5 catches, 45 yards and OTD's. Yeah he didn't put up a huge game, BUT in the 2nd matchup which was considerably more important, he put up 80+ yards and 2 touchdowns. This is where stats don't tell the whole story. The Saints were essentially shut down in the 1st half. Michael Thomas played a huge role in the Saints coming back in the 2nd half of that game allowing them to be in a position to win it up until the fiasco that was the "Minneapolis Miracle". https://www.neworleanssaints.com/video/thomas-route-turns-around-rhodes-on-23-yard-catch-20253568 Michael Thomas turning Rhodes around That is Thomas beating Rhodes in man coverage for a touchdown. 17 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: The 2nd reg season game this year is a perfect example of your exact quote above about stats not telling the whole story. He had a total 5 catches, 81 yards and 0TD's for the whole game. 64 of those yards came on just 2 catches on the first drive of the game and was held to just 3 catches,17 yards the rest of the day. And neither of those catches were on Rhodes either. One was on Waynes and the other was on both Waynes and Harrison. Just an FYI. This is also a good example of looking at stats without context to the game. Those 2 catches you reference were key in going up 7-0 on the Saints first drive as he accounted for a large part of the yards on that 81 yard drive. He also accounted for 2 catches on another scoring drive. Hard to have catches on Rhodes in that 3rd game when Rhodes didn't play in this game though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Spin Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, JustAnotherFan said: Gotta love this forum. In a coaching thread, Payton is one of the best. In a QB thread, Brees is one of the best. He has no OL and no outside help. In a RB thread, Kamara is one of the best and gets no help from his OL. In a WR thread, Thomas is one of the best and he gets no help from the run game and Brees' arm is weak which hinders him. You would have a difficult time arguing that Payton, Brees, Kamara and Thomas should not be considered among the "best" people at their respective jobs across the NFL. I'm not sure why mentioning any of those people in those specific contexts would be outrageous or only a product of homerism. As for the rest of the stuff, blah, that's just typical nonsense that comes up with threads go forever long and the argument is exhausted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said: EXACTLY! So why would the Saints send him deep constantly? The dude just piles up catches and first downs, so why the heck would they send him deep? Larry Fitzgerald is basically the same guy as MT, probably a bit faster. No one has ever said "Larry Fitzgerald isnt a tier 1 guy because he isn't an elite deep threat". Larrys career yards per reception is 12.5, MTs is 11.8. Fitz last few years has brought down his average but besides that when he was in his prime his adot was more like 12-13, thomas this year was sub 8. thats a fairly significant difference, you may want to try a different comparison. Wes Welker maybe? No ones saying thomas isnt a tier 1 wr because he isnt an elite deep threat, its because he doesnt run deeper routes, almost at all. You can say well he doesnt need to cause hes so good with eh short ones, well those are easier to complete so youre not really helping his case tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 hours ago, MookieMonstah said: You know what I'd bet a million dollars on if we could run alternate realities? MT would easily be considered a tier 1 guy if he had gone in the first 20 picks of the draft. the stuff people make up in their head.... Mike Evans was drafted 7th overall and put up 1500 yards and 8 tds last year. you rank him as tier 1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Yeah he didn't put up a huge game, Correct. Now leave out the buts. 11 minutes ago, tyler735 said: 2nd matchup which was considerably more important, he put up 80+ yards and 2 touchdowns. Be perfectly clear. Are you saying he put up all of those yards and 2 TDs against Rhodes? 11 minutes ago, tyler735 said: That is Thomas beating Rhodes in man coverage for a touchdown. 1 play does mean he has shown he can beat Rhodes. Doing it consistently is what matters and Rhodes has still got the best of him. 11 minutes ago, tyler735 said: This is also a good example of looking at stats without context to the game. Those 2 catches you reference were key in going up 7-0 on the Saints first drive as he accounted for a large part of the yards on that 81 yard drive. He also accounted for 2 catches on another scoring drive. Hard to have catches on Rhodes in that 3rd game when Rhodes didn't play in this game though. AKA trying to find the silver lining in the fact that Thomas was invisible for last 55 minutes of the game and held to just 3 catches for 17 yards. Cool. Quote Hard to have catches on Rhodes in that 3rd game when Rhodes didn't play in this game though. Will concede to this. However, again those two catches were against Waynes on the right side of the field where he always plays. Rhodes is always lined up on the left. So either way, it would not have been on him anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Spin Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Jakuvious said: What on earth are you talking about? Lower depth of target means easier completions, so it adds catch rate. Thats what I said. Lower depth of target also reflects the lack of deep passes. Julio having a high depth of target does not mean he is not catching intermediate passes. High or mid level depth of target tends to mean an even spread. Unless it's really high, like near 20, then you typically have a deep specialist. You're trying to reverse the logic and that doesn't make sense. If his depth of target was like 25, you'd be right, hes only catching deep balls. That's not where it is. You're taking really odd and random logical leaps here. Like, go to PFR and pull a list of Julio's receptions. You'll still find plenty of short ones. You wont find many long ones for Thomad. I'll tell you what. Come to me with a data set that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Julio is just as effective (catch rate and contested catches) within Thomas' air yards radius as Thomas is, and I'll buy your conclusion that the only reason Julio's catch rates are lower is because he plays further downfield. Having watched Julio for a number of years, I know Julio has inefficiencies in his game that MT does not. So I don't believe you'll find statistical evidence that says otherwise. But I wish you the best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Spin Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: the stuff people make up in their head.... Mike Evans was drafted 7th overall and put up 1500 yards and 8 tds last year. you rank him as tier 1? I said Mike Evans was a 'true #1' in another thread here. He is a beast. Not sure why he shouldn't be considered an elite WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: If a WR can produce with Ryan FItzpatrick, Case Keenum, Stefon Diggs, Adam Thielen, Mike Evans, Eric Decker, Brandon Marshall, Steve Johnson, Kendall Wright and Nate Washington have all put up good numbers with Keenum or Fitzpatrick throwing the ball to them. 22 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: TJ Yates, Ryan Mallett, Brandon Weeden, Tom Savage and a rookie QB behind center. Don't you think that one year with Brock is more than likely an anomaly. How you still do not seem to understand this is beyond me. Either that or you were just arguing for the sake of arguing. It's not nearly as impressive or unprecedented as you are making it out to be. Josh Gordon had no issue putting up 1,800 yards with the same Brandon Weeden. Hopkins is a great player, but this argument doesn't do much for me and your statement is still incorrect as he didn't produce with Osweiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, tyler735 said: your statement is still incorrect as he didn't produce with Osweiler Yeah, at this point, you're most certainly arguing just for the sake of arguing. I'll say again....... If a WR can produce with Ryan FItzpatrick, Case Keenum, TJ Yates, Ryan Mallett, Brandon Weeden, Tom Savage and a rookie QB behind center. Don't you think that one year with Brock is more than likely an anomaly. How you still do not seem to understand this is beyond me. Either that or you were just arguing for the sake of arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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