tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Correct. Now leave out the buts. Nope. 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Be perfectly clear. Are you saying he put up all of those yards and 2 TDs against Rhodes? 1 play does mean he has shown he can beat Rhodes. Doing it consistently is what matters and Rhodes has still got the best of him. I'm saying he did this to what was a top 2 secondary in the NFL last year with Rhodes taking a beating on a good chunk of this production. 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: AKA trying to find the silver lining in the fact that Thomas was invisible for last 55 minutes of the game and held to just 3 catches for 17 yards. Cool. Hey if you wanna ignore production and move goal posts...you do you lol 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Will concede to this. However, again those two catches were against Waynes on the right side of the field where he always plays. Rhodes is always lined up on the left. So either way, it would not have been on him anyhow. We don't know how they would have lined up Thomas if Rhodes was playing. They sure weren't afraid to go at Rhodes the last time Thomas went against him as they were successful in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, Destructo Spin said: I said Mike Evans was a 'true #1' in another thread here. He is a beast. Not sure why he shouldn't be considered an elite WR. true #1 and elite are different first of all, and are you saying hes in the same category as AB, Julio and OBJ. And if so, exactly how many elite wrs are there? Is Hill a tier one guy too? Adams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Yeah, at this point, you're most certainly arguing just for the sake of arguing. I'll say again....... If a WR can produce with Ryan FItzpatrick, Case Keenum, TJ Yates, Ryan Mallett, Brandon Weeden, Tom Savage and a rookie QB behind center. Don't you think that one year with Brock is more than likely an anomaly. How you still do not seem to understand this is beyond me. Either that or you were just arguing for the sake of arguing. You said he can produce with anyone behind center he has had down years with certain people behind center. That doesn't get anymore clear that he has shown he hasn't shown to produce big numbers regardless of who is behind center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Spin Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: true #1 and elite are different first of all, and are you saying hes in the same category as AB, Julio and OBJ. And if so, exactly how many elite wrs are there? Is Hill a tier one guy too? Adams? I'm not trying to put players in boxes or "tiers" or any other damn thing. I just think it's dumb to discount somebody based on supposed flaws in their game while overlooking obvious flaws in other players. If you think Mike Thomas isn't a top tier WR because he doesn't catch deep passes, I can show you things that he does that other players can't do. Who is to say that catching more deep passes is more important that having the highest catch rate % in NFL history, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Nope. I'm saying he did this to what was a top 2 secondary in the NFL last year with Rhodes taking a beating on a good chunk of this production. Hey if you wanna ignore production and move goal posts...you do you lol We don't know how they would have lined up Thomas if Rhodes was playing. They sure weren't afraid to go at Rhodes the last time Thomas went against him as they were successful in doing so. Yeah it's kind of hypothetical but it is true, Rhodes and Waynes play the same side of field regardless of who they play. Alot of teams do this nowadays. The days of a corner like Neon shadowing the best WR all game are dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Destructo Spin said: I'm not trying to put people in boxes. I think we need to expand our definitions of what it is, not make it smaller. Of course you do, what admit theres a celect few whos just a tad above even the legit #1 guys. thie arguments are getting all over the place between this and the silly rhodes debate (like that decides who is elite or not). Whats the argument for him being in that group, just the sheer # of catches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I'm not disagreeing that's how the Vikings line up, but the Saints likely play the Vikings differently if Rhodes was in the lineup which means Thomas is likely getting moved around differently in that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 28 minutes ago, Destructo Spin said: You would have a difficult time arguing that Payton, Brees, Kamara and Thomas should not be considered among the "best" people at their respective jobs across the NFL. I'm not sure why mentioning any of those people in those specific contexts would be outrageous or only a product of homerism. As for the rest of the stuff, blah, that's just typical nonsense that comes up with threads go forever long and the argument is exhausted I don't have a problem with any of those arguments. But I do have a problem with people who throw their entire team under the bus or downplay their ability in order to prop up player X, and then turn right around and say the exact opposite when said players under the bus are being discussed in another thread. This was not just a jab at Saints fans either. Every fanbase does this to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Spin Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said: Of course you do, what admit theres a celect few whos just a tad above even the legit #1 guys. thie arguments are getting all over the place between this and the silly rhodes debate (like that decides who is elite or not). Whats the argument for him being in that group, just the sheer # of catches? I edited my post for clarity. If you don't think Thomas belongs in the #1 WR "tier" or whatever, that's fine. I just don't see why we're poking holes in his game and ignoring the holes in others. Again, who is to say that big plays + lesser efficiency is somehow automatically better than lesser big plays + greater efficiency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Destructo Spin said: You would have a difficult time arguing that Payton, Brees, Kamara and Thomas should not be considered among the "best" people at their respective jobs across the NFL. I'm not sure why mentioning any of those people in those specific contexts would be outrageous or only a product of homerism. As for the rest of the stuff, blah, that's just typical nonsense that comes up with threads go forever long and the argument is exhausted IMO kamara is a better back than thomas is a WR. It's to some extent the brees effect. I had thomas as my WR1 that year to for the record so it feels good to see me succeed. He's in the 6-10 range (closer to 6) for me IMO. Very good player and obvious #1, but I prefer other's skillsets personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Destructo Spin said: I edited my post for clarity. If you don't think Thomas belongs in the #1 WR "tier" or whatever, that's fine. I just don't see why we're poking holes in his game and ignoring the holes in others. Again, who is to say that big plays + lesser efficiency is somehow automatically better than lesser big plays + greater efficiency? Because you're not properly evaluating efficiency. Catch rate is about as significant for WRs as completion percentage is for QBs. Yards Per Target is a much, much more significant stat. If you compare Thomas to other top WRs, here's how he stacks up in 2018: Thomas - 9.55 YPT Julio - 9.86 YPT Hopkins - 9.64 YPT Evans - 11.04 YPT Hill - 10.80 YPT Hilton - 10.58 YPT Brown - 7.72 YPT Cooks - 10.29 YPT Thielen - 9.15 YPT OBJ - 8.48 YPT Simply put, Thomas wasn't offering greater efficiency. Brown had a down year in terms of efficiency, but he's cut a break because of how dominant he has been the past few years. OBJ is cut a break because of Eli. Meanwhile, Julio, Hopkins, Mike Evans, and Tyreek Hill all were more efficient. T.Y. Hilton and Cooks were also more efficient. Thus, it's quite clear that when you look at the entire picture (bulk stats and efficiency), Thomas isn't in Tier 1. Mike Evans and Tyreek Hill have better arguments right now, to be frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Destructo Spin said: I edited my post for clarity. If you don't think Thomas belongs in the #1 WR "tier" or whatever, that's fine. I just don't see why we're poking holes in his game and ignoring the holes in others. Again, who is to say that big plays + lesser efficiency is somehow automatically better than lesser big plays + greater efficiency? I don't think that has really been the argument though. I think the argument is that while Thomas' catch rate may be much higher than others, he is making those catches at a safer distance than most other WR's and at a higher rate which significantly inflates those catch percentages. I mean, it's easy to complete a pass 5-10 yards down field than it is to complete one 20-30 yards. This is kind like what I was arguing with people last off season about Jarvis Landry. Yeah he has all of those catches and nice little stats, but when you're YPR is so much lower than the field because you spend most of your time 5 yards off the LOS, then those stats don't look as impressive. And to be clear, I'm not saying Thomas and Landry are alike. Just using it as an example. 1 hour ago, Destructo Spin said: Come to me with a data set that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Julio is just as effective (catch rate and contested catches) within Thomas' air yards radius as Thomas is, and I'll buy your conclusion that the only reason Julio's catch rates are lower is because he plays further downfield. This year is not the year to showcase this for Julio as he did most of his work downfield but............ The following is the number of targets from 15 or less yards by direction of field -- Left side, Middle of field, right side in that order as you see it. Now Fixed.=================== Micheal Thomas 47-54, 456 yards, 8.4 YPA, 2TD, OINT = 74% Success rate 23-26, 252 yards, 9.7 YPA, 2TD, 1INT = 77% SR 43-48, 337 yards, 7.0 YPA, 3TD, 0INT = 69% SR Only had 19 targets that were 16 yards or further down field. Caught 15 of them. =================== Julio Jones 29-39, 329 yards, 8.4 YPA, 3TD, 1INT = 72% SR 25-34, 288 yards, 8.5 YPA, 0TD, 1INT = 50% SR 31-38, 333 yards, 8.8 YPA, 2TD, 0INT = 71% SR Had 59 targets that were 16 yards or further down field. =================== It's worth noting that QB rating when targeting each player are pretty close as well. Thomas still has teh advantage but again, this was not the year for Julio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Spin Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Because you're not properly evaluating efficiency. Catch rate is about as significant for WRs as completion percentage is for QBs. Yards Per Target is a much, much more significant stat. If you compare Thomas to other top WRs, here's how he stacks up in 2018: Thomas - 9.55 YPT Julio - 9.86 YPT Hopkins - 9.64 YPT Evans - 11.04 YPT Hill - 10.80 YPT Hilton - 10.58 YPT Brown - 7.72 YPT Cooks - 10.29 YPT Thielen - 9.15 YPT OBJ - 8.48 YPT Simply put, Thomas wasn't offering great efficiency. Brown had a down year in terms of efficiency, but he's cut a break because of how dominant he has been the past few years. OBJ is cut a break because of Eli. Meanwhile, Julio, Hopkins, Mike Evans, and Tyreek Hill all were more efficient. T.Y. Hilton and Cooks were also more efficient. Thus, it's quite clear that when you look at the entire picture (bulk stats and efficiency), Thomas isn't in Tier 1. Mike Evans and Tyreek Hill have better arguments right now, to be frank. those numbers don't do much to help your argument, considering that Thomas is a mere .09 of a yard behind Hopkins in this measure, and .31 of a yard behind Julio while having significantly better catch percentage. In fact, they actually really help my argument. So thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Just now, Destructo Spin said: those numbers don't do much to help your argument, considering that Thomas is a mere .09 of a yard behind Hopkins in this measure, and .31 of a yard behind Julio while having significantly better catch percentage. In fact, they actually really help my argument. So thanks for that. Catch percentage is already factored into those numbers. They make my argument. Thomas doesn't offer greater volume or efficiency. He's not in their class. You're welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Spin Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Catch percentage is already factored into those numbers. They make my argument. Thomas doesn't offer greater volume or efficiency. He's not in their class. You're welcome. The only argument those numbers make is that Mike Thomas belongs in the discussion with those receivers, unless you somehow think that 9.64 = tier 1 but 9.55 does not. What's the cutoff in your eyes? Whatever you want it to be to try and exclude him. So 9.63? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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