SmittyBacall Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 43 minutes ago, Destructo Spin said: See, the assumption running through this thread via Thomas' detractors is that because he doesn't catch a lot of deep passes, that he must lack the skillset and is thus not a "complete" WR. I mean, numbers aside, I've never seen Thomas just run a straight vertical or skinny post and catch a ball 40+ yards down the field like we've seen Ted Ginn do in the same offense with the same quarterback. "Because he's better in the intermediate/short areas and making him go deep would take away from his strengths" or "Brees can't throw deep" aren't valid excuses as to why we never see it. It's without a doubt a weakness in his game. I don't know why it's so hard to admit that. If he's as capable as his peers (e.g. AB, Hopkins, Jones) in this 1A WR debate at stretching the field, why don't we see it? It doesn't make any sense. One would think, if he's just as good as Hopkins or Jones going deep than Payton would utilize that skillset. When, from what I've seen, it rarely if ever happens. He's a premier possession receiver. He's the best at what he does. But I for one value a receiver who can do more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Michael Thomas through 3 seasons: 4th most receiving yards in NFL history for a WR through 3 seasons (3,787 receiving yards). Highest Catch Percentage by a WR through his first 3 seasons (since 1993) with a 77% Catch Percentage (7% ahead of the next WR). Most receptions by a WR in NFL history through their first 3 seasons with 321 receptions (33 more than the next WR), it should also be noted that he has the 5th most targets through 3 years https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=1920&year_max=2018&season_start=1&season_end=3&pos[]=wr&draft_year_min=1936&draft_year_max=2018&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&draft_pick_in_round=pick_overall&conference=any&draft_pos[]=qb&draft_pos[]=rb&draft_pos[]=wr&draft_pos[]=te&draft_pos[]=e&draft_pos[]=t&draft_pos[]=g&draft_pos[]=c&draft_pos[]=ol&draft_pos[]=dt&draft_pos[]=de&draft_pos[]=dl&draft_pos[]=ilb&draft_pos[]=olb&draft_pos[]=lb&draft_pos[]=cb&draft_pos[]=s&draft_pos[]=db&draft_pos[]=k&draft_pos[]=p&c5val=1.0&order_by=rec_yds Obviously statistics tell only part of the story, but at the very least in many ways he is putting up elite stats to start his career. He has also elevated his game in some of the biggest match-ups in his career. Against the Rams this year in the regular season he put up 211 receiving yards and a touchdown in what was quite possibly the biggest regular season game of the year. In the playoffs Michael Thomas has now played 3 games. He is averaging 129 receiving yards and a touchdown in each of his 3 playoff games. He's also shown he can beat top CB's such as Xavier Rhodes. I don't see how he isn't considered a top 5 WR at this point in time. As I mentioned before, I think he's closing the gap on AB, Jones, Hopkins, and Beckham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 @ET80 wanna set the o/u on how many pages this goes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Spin Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 45 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: But I for one value a receiver who can do more. You say "more," which seems like an assumption that there are players capable of doing what Mike Thomas does and also adding big plays, etc. on top of that. I'm not sure that's a safe assumption. The statistics suggest it isn't. Julio, Hopkins, Beckham, etc. have overall great numbers but their possession metrics lack by comparison. I think all these players are great, FWIW. I'm not bashing any of them. But none of them are perfect relative to each others' strengths and weaknesses either. So either we need to be more inclusive of varying skillsets and statlines in considering what is the ultimate "tier 1" receiver, or we need to admit that the perfect combination of those things does not exist in reality ATM and that this theoretical "tier 1" WR is a unicorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 Well, this topic blew up. Glad to see it is a viably controversial topic where both sides can and cannot be argued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 You know what I'd bet a million dollars on if we could run alternate realities? MT would easily be considered a tier 1 guy if he had gone in the first 20 picks of the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I think a better question would be, "Is Tyreek Hill a Tier-1A receiver?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 hours ago, tyler735 said: Ingram/Kamara have had off weeks as well. Michael Thomas has also had some good games when this has happened. Quote Do tell? 3 hours ago, tyler735 said: Watson has had 2 seasons in which he has finished with a 100 plus QB Rating. Brees is undoubtedly a better QB, but Watson has been very good/great since coming into the league passing the ball. This doesn't account that defenses have to account for his legs whether you want to admit it or not (No matter how many ">" you use). What? 1) Watson missed 9 or 8 games last season to IR and Nuk still produced. 2) Watson has not been great at passing the ball and is nowhere near the level of Brees. 3 hours ago, tyler735 said: And this is cherry picking to ignore one season with a bad QB if you are going to say "Nuk has produce no matter who was throwing him the ball" as he didn't produce well during that season. Who said I was ignoring anything? You're the one who continues to ignore the fact that he has produced with garbage behind center and are so fixated on one season because the other 4 do not fit your narrative and prove you wrong. 3 hours ago, tyler735 said: Most importantly, you have yet to provide any factual argument that D-Coordinators scheme more for Hopkins than Thomas. For one, I have already explained it. In fact, you inadvertently agreed with it. 5 hours ago, tyler735 said: Quote Between Houston's and Saints offenses......who has more moving parts that the defenses have to account for as a whole? Including the play callers? Brees, Kamara, Payton, The Saints do. Quote I think it's both fair and safe to say that opposing DC's put much more emphasis on Nuk than they do anyone else on that offense and certainly much more than they do Thomas. Two, no matter what I or anyone else says, it is obvious that you're going to continue to refuse to take off the glasses off and will ignore any and all negative points about Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Gotta love this forum. In a coaching thread, Payton is one of the best. In a QB thread, Brees is one of the best. He has no OL and no outside help. In a RB thread, Kamara is one of the best and gets no help from his OL. In a WR thread, Thomas is one of the best and he gets no help from the run game and Brees' arm is weak which hinders him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said: I mean, numbers aside, I've never seen Thomas just run a straight vertical or skinny post and catch a ball 40+ yards down the field like we've seen Ted Ginn do in the same offense with the same quarterback. "Because he's better in the intermediate/short areas and making him go deep would take away from his strengths" or "Brees can't throw deep" aren't valid excuses as to why we never see it. It's without a doubt a weakness in his game. I don't know why it's so hard to admit that. If he's as capable as his peers (e.g. AB, Hopkins, Jones) in this 1A WR debate at stretching the field, why don't we see it? It doesn't make any sense. One would think, if he's just as good as Hopkins or Jones going deep than Payton would utilize that skillset. When, from what I've seen, it rarely if ever happens. He's a premier possession receiver. He's the best at what he does. But I for one value a receiver who can do more. EXACTLY! So why would the Saints send him deep constantly? The dude just piles up catches and first downs, so why the heck would they send him deep? Larry Fitzgerald is basically the same guy as MT, probably a bit faster. No one has ever said "Larry Fitzgerald isnt a tier 1 guy because he isn't an elite deep threat". Larrys career yards per reception is 12.5, MTs is 11.8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Just now, JustAnotherFan said: Gotta love this forum. In a coaching thread, Payton is one of the best. In a QB thread, Brees is one of the best. He has no OL and no outside help. In a RB thread, Kamara is one of the best and gets no help from his OL. In a WR thread, Thomas is one of the best and he gets no help from the run game and Brees' arm is weak which hinders him. And there it is. Saints fans have had some homer takes this season, no doubt, but now you're swinging the opposite way and arguing just because you're still #madonline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: I think a better question would be, "Is Tyreek Hill a Tier-1A receiver?". BECAUSE HE RUNS FAST BRUH!!! and this is not a knock on Tyreek, hes an amazing WR, but lol at saying MT definitely isn't tier 1 but Hill is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, ET80 said: Huh? You mean his rookie season where he was a #2 behind Andre Johnson? That's the only time Hopkins worked with Matt Schaub. Andre posted a 109/1,407/5 stat line during the 2013 season, so yes - Hopkins was the #2 that year. Sorry, Brock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 minute ago, MookieMonstah said: And there it is. Saints fans have had some homer takes this season, no doubt, but now you're swinging the opposite way and arguing just because you're still #madonline. Wrong again. But great argument once again. 2 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: EXACTLY! So why would the Saints send him deep constantly? The dude just piles up catches and first downs, so why the heck would they send him deep? Larry Fitzgerald is basically the same guy as MT, probably a bit faster. No one has ever said "Larry Fitzgerald isnt a tier 1 guy because he isn't an elite deep threat". Larrys career yards per reception is 12.5, MTs is 11.8. Yeah. let's ignore the fact that Fitz has been playing slot longer than Thomas has been in the league. How does this help your argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: What? 1) Watson missed 9 or 8 games last season to IR and Nuk still produced. Watson was being considered as a borderline MVP candidate half way through the season last year. I didn't say Hopkins couldn't produce without Watson 7 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: 2) Watson has not been great at passing the ball and is nowhere near the level of Brees. You play this card that Thomas has it so great and Hopkins has been dealt this horrible hand. It just isn't the case. Sure Thomas has Brees which can be a blessing and a curse. Brees spreads the ball around more than just about any QB in NFL history. 7 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Who said I was ignoring anything? You literally said you were ignoring a season. 7 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: You're the one who continues to ignore the fact that he has produced with garbage behind center and are so fixated on one season because the other 4 do not fit your narrative and prove you wrong. How am I ignoring it if I've said I view Hopkins as a top 4 WR? You have just embellished things with several of those initial points you tried to make. 7 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: For one, I have already explained it. In fact, you inadvertently agreed with it. Nope, I did not inadvertently agree with it. 7 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Two, no matter what I or anyone else says, it is obvious that you're going to continue to refuse to take off the glasses off and will ignore any and all negative points about Thomas. Yep that's why I've repeatedly stated in this thread and in others regarding Thomas that he is my 5th ranked WR behind AB, Jones, Hopkins and Beckham. Cool story though about the glasses and stuff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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