BlaqOptic Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 24 minutes ago, Starless said: I mean, there's a plethora of guys in the HOF who are nowhere near the ranks of the greatest ever to play their positions. I don't think that's been the criteria for a very long time. I think this is a very fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Good for Johnny Robinson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Ty Law had identical regular season stats to first ballot Champ Bailey. He helped define the start of the Patriots dynasty with his pick 6 of Warner in the Super Bowl and his complete destruction of Marvin Harrison in the 2003 AFCCG. He obviously belongs in Canton. Peyton Manning had 25 picks in 27 playoff games. 5 of them are from Ty Law in 2 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 8 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said: I guess we have different definitions of what is considered decent then because to me a decent passer doesn't turn the ball over 29 times in a single season. Bulger benefited more from Holt than Holt did Bulger. I guess I just don't understand the logic here. You're trying to downplay what Holt did by trying to prop up his supporting cast while ignoring it with Bulger. This seems especially strange when Holt alone accounted for 55% of Bulger's passing TD's. You then cite Miller's DYAR/DVOA (which I don't agree with using for individual) to state how awful he was compared to Bulger but do not seem to be applying that same logic when comparing Bruce '95 season vs Holt's -- which shows Holt was better and by a significant margin. Bruce's DYAR was 442(3rd) and Holt's was 508 (T-1st with Randy Moss). Bruce's YAR was 409 (4th) vs 541(1st) Bruce's DVOA was 16.2% (11th) vs 23.6% (9th) Bruce's Effective yards was +116 vs +195 --------------------------- Who would say was the biggest part of the Rams offense in '03? Also, the Rams went 12-4 in large part because of their defense and special teams (something that gets overlooked far too often whenever people talk about the GSOT). Not because of Marc Bulger. I haven't argued against either of these things. But I'm also not going use this to downplay Holt's success either. Like I already stated earlier, Bulger still showed flashes of the quality passer he would be become for the next 3 years. Miller never showed flashes of anything really, and in 1995 was one of the worst ranked passers. Bulger was about average, even with his 22 INT to 22 TDs. Ranked 16th in DYAR. To me average in the NFL can be decent. I'm not discounting Bulger. He wasn't great, but Holt was still in a better situation to put up better numbers compared to Bruce in 1995. Including QB play. Not surprising that Holt's advanced metrics are slightly better with a better performing QB, and better cast. Bruce was putting up quality digits in spite of his handicap. Rams did go 12-4 in large part of their defense and special teams. They also went in 12-4 in large part of their offense. Middle of the pack DVOA, but 2nd in point scored, and top 10 in yards. Rams were second in DVOA on defense, but ranked middle of the pack in yards and points. Anyways, highly doubt that have that record with Jaime Martin at QB as evidenced the previous season when he played terrible in the 5 games he played, and Bulger was sensational in the 7 games. I guess we're at a standstill here. I still maintain that Bruce's 1995 season was better given the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 3 hours ago, SkippyX said: Ty Law had identical regular season stats to first ballot Champ Bailey. He helped define the start of the Patriots dynasty with his pick 6 of Warner in the Super Bowl and his complete destruction of Marvin Harrison in the 2003 AFCCG. He obviously belongs in Canton. Peyton Manning had 25 picks in 27 playoff games. 5 of them are from Ty Law in 2 games. Law was a great player and deserving but he was not peak Bailey. Champ Bailey has the most Pro Bowls ever by a DB. Law/Bailey INTs are almost identical. Champ has more AllPros than Law. Bailey has the most pass breakups in NFL history. He also was known for traveling with #1 WRs every snap in man coverage for a decade plus. Law was really really really good. But he was not Champ Bailey who defined his position for an entire decade. Bailey was legitimently feared and gameplanned for on a weekly basis by opposing offenses where seasons would go by with teams actively throwing away from him, Im not sure if Law was ever at that level for nearly as long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 46 minutes ago, PapaShogun said: I guess we're at a standstill here. Yes we are because you know my opinions are always the correct ones dammit! 50 minutes ago, PapaShogun said: I still maintain that Bruce's 1995 season was better given the circumstances. Now I get how and why this disagreement possibly started in the first place. Unless I'm wrong, you seem to think I believe that Holt's 2003 season was better than Bruce's '95 season? If that's the case then, no I don't think so. It certainly was more impressive. My point was that people were bringing up 1 single season where Bruce was phenomenal with a terrible cast as a focal point as to why he was better than Holt and seemed to forget that Holt also had a great year with a limited cast. Not to the same extent but a great one nonetheless. Holt was better than Bruce. That's all I was saying. It's all good though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 36 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said: Law was a great player and deserving but he was not peak Bailey. Champ Bailey has the most Pro Bowls ever by a DB. Law/Bailey INTs are almost identical. Champ has more AllPros than Law. Bailey has the most pass breakups in NFL history. He also was known for traveling with #1 WRs every snap in man coverage for a decade plus. Law was really really really good. But he was not Champ Bailey who defined his position for an entire decade. Bailey was legitimently feared and gameplanned for on a weekly basis by opposing offenses where seasons would go by with teams actively throwing away from him, Im not sure if Law was ever at that level for nearly as long. I'm glad you edited the part where you said Bailey trailed almost every top WR for a decade (paraphrase) because he played the QB's Right side exclusively. Which both hurts and helps your case. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Ty Law over Faneca this year? Mehhhhhhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 6 hours ago, BlaqOptic said: For my money, Kevin Mawae and Ty Law aren't Hall of Famers. Especially Mawae over Faneca or Hutchinson. What's crazy about Mawae is that they have only elected 11 other players who primarily played center in history but felt like Mawae was deserving enough to be added to such a short list??? This opens up a whole nother can of worms now because if Olin does not get in sooner than I'm throwing everything within arms reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 22 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said: Again, I have yet a valid argument how Bruce was better and more deserving of the HoF than Holt was. The argument for Bruce over Holt is longevity. They were equally great players. Both deserve to be in. It should be easier than Bruce because of the career stats he has. Of course, for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be much easier for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 32 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: I'm glad you edited the part where you said Bailey trailed almost every top WR for a decade (paraphrase) because he played the QB's Right side exclusively. Which both hurts and helps your case. That is all. I replaced it because I didnt want to put it on a time frame. He did not exclusively play right side. It is widely known that he traveled with #1 WRs wherever they lineup up. Teams tried motion offenses to try to switch their WR off of him multiple times a game. Steve Smith had a interview today specifying this exact trait as to why hes the best DB hes ever faced. If you think differently then please post the numbers that prove otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 1 minute ago, AkronsWitness said: I replaced it because I didnt want to put it on a time frame. He did not exclusively play right side. It is widely known that he traveled with #1 WRs. Steve Smith had a interview today specifying this exact trait as to why hes the best DB hes ever faced. If you think differently then please post the numbers that prove otherwise. I have no numbers. I'm basing it on what I remember. I didn't see him locked on the best wide receiver unless the offensive play-call called for them to line up in his direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, jrry32 said: The argument for Bruce over Holt is longevity. They were equally great players. Both deserve to be in. It should be easier than Bruce because of the career stats he has. Of course, for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be much easier for him. Yes, but that' my beef with it. Longevity means something yes. It means alot. But so does consistency and impact. it's not as if Bruce's longevity was the same as Fitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Just now, JustAnotherFan said: I have no numbers. I'm basing it on what I remember. I didn't see him locked on the best wide receiver unless the offensive play-call called for them to line up in his direction. I watched every game he played for a decade. He would be in man coverage against the WR1 every game and he would trail. Teams would try audibles, shifts, motions to try to switch who they wanted to get the ball off of him multiple times a game onto the other side of the field. The Pats were really hip to this and would constantly send WRs running across to the other side of the field to get them off Champ, then throw them the ball. IDK I added the video, here it is of Steve Smith today saying the exact same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Yes, but that' my beef with it. Longevity means something yes. It means alot. But so does consistency and impact. it's not as if Bruce's longevity was the same as Fitz. You'll have to elaborate there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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