Jlowe22 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 5 hours ago, SBLIII said: he isn't. Brady is the only QB in history to carry historically bad defenses to the Super Bowl. And he did it twice. Although I give Peyton credit for the 2006 team as their defense was 25th DVOA. Tom took the 30th DVOA defense in 2011 and the 31st DVOA defense in 2017 to the SB. Unprecedented. Tom is 6-1 in Super Bowls when Belichick gifted him at least an average defense. And the defenses in 14,16 and 18 were just average (12,16,16) but it was enough. Peyton won 1 SB with a bad defense, lost 2 with average defenses. Hell, he would have only won 1 SB if not for the #1 DVOA Denver defense carrying him to his 2nd ring. The last elite defense Brady had was 2006 (7th). That's why Brady is the greatest player in the history of the NFL. Nobody else could have won all these Super Bowls with average defenses and reach Super Bowls with terrible defenses. Lol, the 2011 Pats defense was not historically bad. They ranked 15th in points and 3rd in takeaways. They gave up a lot of yards, ranked 31st but who cares. The Packers that year were the same story with a bad defense that got a lot of takeaways. By comparison, the Saints defense in 09 ranked 20th in points and 2nd in takeaways, 25th in yards. Takeaways can make up a lot of ground. Especially when you have an offense that can take advantage of the short fields, like 09 Saints and 2011 Packers and Patriots. I wouldn't call a defense ranked top 3 in takeaways historically bad, or anywhere close really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LieutenantGains Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Is DVOA a good stat when comparing a QB's offenses and defenses? Legit curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Better QB? Manning Better player? Steve Young. He was more versatile and athletic than Manning could ever hope to be. Manning has a bit of an edge in the football IQ/passing category, but it's not as large of a gap as Young's mobility compared to Manning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 This is a really dumb question. 7x First-Team All-Pro 5x NFL MVP retired as all-time leader in yards, touchdowns holds single season passing yardage record broke the passer rating record broke the touchdown record twice, currently holds it currently holds the single season touchdown record All-time leader in Game-winning drives lead the most efficient offense in the league 5x Or 3x First-Team All-Pro 2x NFL MVP broke passer rating record lead the most efficient offense in the league 2x(Although, his first two seasons as a starter, drive stats weren't being tracked yet, so it's possible he did this 4x but it's still worse) Not even a comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 11 hours ago, SBLIII said: and would have 4+ titles if he didn't run into Belichick and Ty Law. Yeah. Good for Ty Law finally getting into the HoF. He deserves it. Quote Brady is the only QB in history to carry historically bad defenses to the Super Bowl. He literally never did that. He's never even taken a defense to the Super Bowl that is even below average for that particular season in scoring or defensive efficiency. For that matter, the 2017 team was 5th in scoring and 6th in defensive efficiency. It was a very good defense, let alone a historically bad defense. Quote Tom is 6-1 in Super Bowls when Belichick gifted him at least an average defense. Belicheck gifted him an "at least an average defense" essentially every season of his entire career. He only went into the playoffs with below average scoring defenses twice ever, and went 3-2. Two of the wins coming off the Jaguars, who always suck, and Tebow's Broncos who may be the worst team to ever get to the divisional round. Quote Nobody else could have won all these Super Bowls with average defenses and reach Super Bowls with terrible defenses. Neither of these claims are even remotely true. Objectively wrong in both respects. The worst defense he ever won a Super Bowl with was 8th in scoring defense, and that was basically just because a bad call allowed them to play the lesser team in the Super Bowl. (this year) This also being a Super Bowl in which he played like complete garbage. He won Super Bowls with teams that were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 4th in scoring defense. It's hilarious that you claim he had won SB's with average defenses when their average scoring defense rank is 3.8. I already explained how the other claim is false. Quote Lol, the 2011 Pats defense was not historically bad. They ranked 15th in points and 3rd in takeaways. They gave up a lot of yards, ranked 31st but who cares. The Packers that year were the same story with a bad defense that got a lot of takeaways. By comparison, the Saints defense in 09 ranked 20th in points and 2nd in takeaways, 25th in yards. Takeaways can make up a lot of ground. Especially when you have an offense that can take advantage of the short fields, like 09 Saints and 2011 Packers and Patriots. I wouldn't call a defense ranked top 3 in takeaways historically bad, or anywhere close really. Thank you. 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFLExpert49 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Young was the better passer, Manning was the better QB. Young would murder him in an accuracy contest, but Manning was an offensive coordinator on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chargers Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 3 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said: Young was the better passer, Manning was the better QB. Young would murder him in an accuracy contest, but Manning was an offensive coordinator on the field. My god does Young get overrated in these comparison threads lately. He isn't even a Top 5 QB of All Time. Manning would take those stacked 49ers of the 90's to 4 or 5 Super Bowls, even with the Cowboys of that time contending against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilflamingo Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Better peak, Young. Better career/accolades, Manning. Both however performed worse in the playoffs than regular season but I see the drop-off was more significant with Manning. Voted Young because I like him better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikes635 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 This was a tuff one but ultimately I went with Peyton. Both are in the Top 15 QB's of all time though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 7 hours ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said: Yeah. Good for Ty Law finally getting into the HoF. He deserves it. He literally never did that. He's never even taken a defense to the Super Bowl that is even below average for that particular season in scoring or defensive efficiency. For that matter, the 2017 team was 5th in scoring and 6th in defensive efficiency. It was a very good defense, let alone a historically bad defense. Belicheck gifted him an "at least an average defense" essentially every season of his entire career. He only went into the playoffs with below average scoring defenses twice ever, and went 3-2. Two of the wins coming off the Jaguars, who always suck, and Tebow's Broncos who may be the worst team to ever get to the divisional round. Neither of these claims are even remotely true. Objectively wrong in both respects. The worst defense he ever won a Super Bowl with was 8th in scoring defense, and that was basically just because a bad call allowed them to play the lesser team in the Super Bowl. (this year) This also being a Super Bowl in which he played like complete garbage. He won Super Bowls with teams that were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 4th in scoring defense. It's hilarious that you claim he had won SB's with average defenses when their average scoring defense rank is 3.8. I already explained how the other claim is false. Thank you. 100%. you need to look far beyond scoring defense to measure a defense which you do not. Scoring defense (besides the obvious metrics RZ defense etc) is driven by offensive pace, offensive success and schedule which you seem to ignore. I have no idea where you get your efficiency stats from but it was ranked 31st. Translation 2nd worst in the league, horrific. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elky Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Yeah, I remember the 2011 defense. It could be 3rd and 30 and that defense would somehow let the opposing team convert. They also nearly blew a 31-3 lead against freaking Dan Orlovsky. The takeaways were nice, but it was a terrible defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 4 hours ago, SBLIII said: you need to look far beyond scoring defense to measure a defense which you do not. Scoring defense (besides the obvious metrics RZ defense etc) is driven by offensive pace, offensive success and schedule which you seem to ignore. I have no idea where you get your efficiency stats from but it was ranked 31st. Translation 2nd worst in the league, horrific. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2017 That's not historically bad. There's like 6 Saints defenses just in this era that are historically bad. 2015 Saints was a historically bad defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Malik said: That's not historically bad. There's like 6 Saints defenses just in this era that are historically bad. 2015 Saints was a historically bad defense. yeah sorry I meant in regards to making it to the Super Bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJerseypaint Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 1. Do we have to stick Brady into every comparison? The title literally only asks to compare either Peyton or Steve Young. 2. Why are Pats fans conveniently re imagining the "bend but don't break" defense? You guys hail it when it wins you SB, but years later call it a historically bad defense because it doesn't fit your narrative? 6-1 when BB "gifts at least an average defense"? Is that what we call the defenses that limited 3 of the top 10 highest scoring offenses of all time? The defenses you are talking about are not even close to historically bad - but the offenses Pats have face were 100% historically good. And not just in regards to making it to the SB (which is a strange qualifier that I don't quite understand). Now for the actual topic: Peyton is the only QB to win super bowls with two different teams and that is what impresses me the most. Change the personnel, change HC, change the OC, and Peyton still wins an SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said: Now for the actual topic: Peyton is the only QB to win super bowls with two different teams and that is what impresses me the most. Change the personnel, change HC, change the OC, and Peyton still wins an SB. would have been a lot more impressive if he did when he actually was great (2013). 2015 was all his defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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