NFC North Rivals 2019 Talk

[dll2000]

14 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I found four in the first minute of that game alone where you could legitimately say Gary saw double teams.  Maybe not double teams the entire time, but he was often having a second OL chip him or help out to block him.  And you're clearly not watching him if you don't see him getting off a block.  I'm hoping it's just an exaggeration to prove a point.  He's not your twitchy pass rusher like Brian Burns, which is why I think part of the appeal of Gary lags behind.  He's arguably the best run defender of the EDGE, and his measurables matched up favorably to Bradley Chubb.  But let's look at this objectively, if the production (i.e. sacks and TFL) were there, we'd be talking about a top 3 pick.  Not someone who is even close to sniffing the 12th pick.

I’d say he is double teamed and chipped occasionally as part of natural blocking scheme.  You double to second level securing front line to second. You chip guys on strong side.  He actually had several good plays in that game even though Ohio St. appears to be moving ball with ease.

I was just comically responding to these ridiculous public claims that his lack of production was a result of extreme special attention directed just at him.  That isn’t even possible.  You can’t just leave Michigan guys unblocked and they aren’t rushing 3 in their scheme. 

That being said I am not on Gary sucks bandwagon. I would love him in second. And he is physically most gifted player in entire draft. I just think he isn’t a top, top football player and hasn’t been since high school.

I hope that continues because I am biased.   

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I’d say he is double teamed and chipped occasionally as part of natural blocking scheme.  You double to second level securing front line to second. You chip guys on strong side.  He actually had several good plays in that game even though Ohio St. appears to be moving ball with ease.

I was just comically responding to these ridiculous public claims that his lack of production was a result of extreme special attention directed just at him.  That isn’t even possible.  You can’t just leave Michigan guys unblocked and they aren’t rushing 3 in their scheme. 

That being said I am not on Gary sucks bandwagon. I would love him in second. And he is physically most gifted player in entire draft. I just think he isn’t a top, top football player and hasn’t been since high school.

I hope that continues because I am biased.   

While that may very well be true, teams don't want their OL sitting in the pocket and just waiting for someone to get to their body.  They get to the second level and find LBs or DBs to block.  Either way, it proves true that Gary was facing double teams pretty often, which does impact your ability to get to the QB.  You've even got Harbaugh citing Gary's impact goes far beyond numbers, yet a few talking heads seem to have made this ridiculous comment about Gary being "lazy" and it gets parroted around.  You consistently see Gary facing double and even triple teams, which frees up guys like Devin Bush or Chase Winovich to make plays.  If you refuse to see it, I can't help you because it's clear as day.  He's the focus of the defense.  Other teams often run away from him.  There's another video here that shows just how much opposing teams focus on Gary.

Nobody is doubting there's risk.  But you're looking at a guy who physically compares to Bradley Chubb (the 5th overall pick from the 2018 NFL Draft) who they believed played in a defensive scheme that highlighted other players.

[WindyCity]

I am not a big Gary guy.

I like the rest of the Packers draft, Savage, Jenkins, and Sternberger are all guys I really liked in the draft.

Lions, I am not sure what the hell they were doing.

Vikings, has a solid draft, but I have no respect for Cousins.

[soulman]

My question about Gary is what's his best position in the NFL?

He plays more like a 4-3 DE and possibly a guy you could also play as a 3 tech DT on passing downs.  I don't see a fit as a 3-4 OLB as much and can he play as a DE in a 3-4?  He's a good run defender but at 275lbs light for a 3-4 DE.

How he's used and what he's asked to do may have a lot to do with his NFL success.

[dll2000]

32 minutes ago, soulman said:

My question about Gary is what's his best position in the NFL?

He plays more like a 4-3 DE and possibly a guy you could also play as a 3 tech DT on passing downs.  I don't see a fit as a 3-4 OLB as much and can he play as a DE in a 3-4?  He's a good run defender but at 275lbs light for a 3-4 DE.

How he's used and what he's asked to do may have a lot to do with his NFL success.

4-3 3 tech IMO. 

OLB in 3-4 will be out of position. 

[soulman]

7 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

4-3 3 tech IMO. 

OLB in 3-4 will be out of position. 

But doesn't Pettine use a 3-4 base D?

[dll2000]

58 minutes ago, soulman said:

But doesn't Pettine use a 3-4 base D?

Yup. 

[abstract_thought]

I think Gary could do well as a 5T in an attacking 3-4 defense but he's best suited as a 3T.

[Spartacus]

3 hours ago, soulman said:

But doesn't Pettine use a 3-4 base D?

No one plays base D anymore. 3-4 4-3 don't even mean anything. 

[soulman]

9 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

No one plays base D anymore. 3-4 4-3 don't even mean anything. 

Not according to "coach speak" so I don't feel that's 100% the case.  Fangio's base defense is a 3-4.  Lovie's was a 4-3.

But I also realize there are a lot of variations on a theme and with some DCs more so than others.

[Heinz D.]

8 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I found four in the first minute of that game alone where you could legitimately say Gary saw double teams.  Maybe not double teams the entire time, but he was often having a second OL chip him or help out to block him.  And you're clearly not watching him if you don't see him getting off a block.  I'm hoping it's just an exaggeration to prove a point.  He's not your twitchy pass rusher like Brian Burns, which is why I think part of the appeal of Gary lags behind.  He's arguably the best run defender of the EDGE, and his measurables matched up favorably to Bradley Chubb.  But let's look at this objectively, if the production (i.e. sacks and TFL) were there, we'd be talking about a top 3 pick.  Not someone who is even close to sniffing the 12th pick.

Yeah, with his athletic measurables, had he played better, he would have been a solid top 5 guy.

He didn't play all that well. Which makes him a gamble. Gutekunst screwed up, big time. So MANY guys without question marks sitting there at twelve, and Gute completely ****s it up. I was surprised.

3 hours ago, Spartacus said:

No one plays base D anymore. 3-4 4-3 don't even mean anything. 

That isn't at all true. 

[Spartacus]

16 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

Yeah, with his athletic measurables, had he played better, he would have been a solid top 5 guy.

He didn't play all that well. Which makes him a gamble. Gutekunst screwed up, big time. So MANY guys without question marks sitting there at twelve, and Gute completely ****s it up. I was surprised.

That isn't at all true. 

Base D was only played in 33 % of defensive snaps in 2017. In 2018 only 3 teams played over 50 % of there Defense in base D. A base 3-4 4-3 is outdated. Teams almost exclusively play a form of Nickle or Dime defense now. 

[CWood21]

2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Yeah, with his athletic measurables, had he played better, he would have been a solid top 5 guy.

He didn't play all that well. Which makes him a gamble. Gutekunst screwed up, big time. So MANY guys without question marks sitting there at twelve, and Gute completely ****s it up. I was surprised.

No.  His numbers didn't translate into sacks and TFL because of all the attention he was getting.  If you watched him play and came away under the impression he didn't play well, you really have no idea what you're looking at.  Is he a no brainer?  Absolutely not.  But then again, there weren't any no brainers at 12.

[soulman]

2 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Base D was only played in 33 % of defensive snaps in 2017. In 2018 only 3 teams played over 50 % of there Defense in base D. A base 3-4 4-3 is outdated. Teams almost exclusively play a form of Nickle or Dime defense now. 

 

6 hours ago, soulman said:

6 hours ago, Spartacus said:

No one plays base D anymore. 3-4 4-3 don't even mean anything. 

You've destroyed your own argument that "No one plays a base D anymore" if on average it's played on 1/3 of all defensive snaps and with some teams as much as 50%.

Quite obviously it is used against certain personnel packages but not against others.  No one is saying or even implying that teams are in a base defense on every down.

Edited April 30, 2019 by soulman

[Spartacus]

8 hours ago, soulman said:

 

You've destroyed your own argument that "No one plays a base D anymore" if on average it's played on 1/3 of all defensive snaps and with some teams as much as 50%.

Quite obviously it is used against certain personnel packages but not against others.  No one is saying or even implying that teams are in a base defense on every down.

Obviously I didn't mean no one ever plays base defense but for almost all teams they are outdated schemes that are only used in obvious running situations. Its a fairly useless way for most teams to look at how they are using the majority of their defensive packages.