The Zim-Zam Flim-Flam: All Things Zimmer

[Uncle Buck]

In reaction to the team's meltdown in the NFCCG, I am not saying he should be fired.  That would be a massive overreaction.  He IS a great coach, and I'm glad we have him.  At the same time, I really have to put the blame of the team's performance in the NFCCG on him.  Sure, the players were the ones who missed tackles, committed turnovers, etc., but when that happens in a game of that magnitude, it is the responsibility of the head coach to regroup them and settle them down.  As others have said, he was simply outcoached.  At this point, about all we can do is chalk it up to his having a bad game, which can happen to anyone.  Unfortunately, this happened in a situation where the stars have never been aligned so much in our favor.  I'm willing to give him a mulligan on this one, but this CANNOT happen again.  I hope he learns from the experience and the next time we are in that situation, he is a better leader.  You just can't have a letdown like that when the stakes are so high.  That's the difference between winners and losers - winners find a way to overcome adversity.  I still have faith in him, but if we see another performance like that in the playoffs it will be time to start asking some hard questions.  I hope it doesn't.

[Ozzy]

22 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

In reaction to the team's meltdown in the NFCCG, I am not saying he should be fired.  That would be a massive overreaction.  He IS a great coach, and I'm glad we have him.  At the same time, I really have to put the blame of the team's performance in the NFCCG on him.  Sure, the players were the ones who missed tackles, committed turnovers, etc., but when that happens in a game of that magnitude, it is the responsibility of the head coach to regroup them and settle them down.  As others have said, he was simply outcoached.  At this point, about all we can do is chalk it up to his having a bad game, which can happen to anyone.  Unfortunately, this happened in a situation where the stars have never been aligned so much in our favor.  I'm willing to give him a mulligan on this one, but this CANNOT happen again.  I hope he learns from the experience and the next time we are in that situation, he is a better leader.  You just can't have a letdown like that when the stakes are so high.  That's the difference between winners and losers - winners find a way to overcome adversity.  I still have faith in him, but if we see another performance like that in the playoffs it will be time to start asking some hard questions.  I hope it doesn't.

We have not had that many coaches but Zimmer has the 3rd best winning percentage behind Denny and Bud of course.  He has brought a defensive identity we rarely have had here, brought them to a new level they were not even at with Frazier as the HC or Tomlin as the the DC.

 

Yes his playoff record is awful in his career, but honestly who else would they get that is any better?  Think Pat Schurmur would do a better job, yeah right....  He is very solid, and to say they lost to the Eagles on X's and O's, more like over confidence and hype coming off the "Minnesota Miracle" and believing the team is a team of destiny.  Love to see Bill Belichick try and win that game with that OL blocking so terribly and that defense playing their worst game of the year not getting off the football field.  Oh and Nick Foles playing the game of his career doing things he has not done all season long, that helped a little as well.

 

Sure the coach will do the standard thing and blame himself for the loss but the players play the game.  It is not like one could pinpoint specific coaching mistakes Zimmer did to lose that football game.

 

 

[Uncle Buck]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

We have not had that many coaches but Zimmer has the 3rd best winning percentage behind Denny and Bud of course.  He has brought a defensive identity we rarely have had here, brought them to a new level they were not even at with Frazier as the HC or Tomlin as the the DC.

 

Yes his playoff record is awful in his career, but honestly who else would they get that is any better?  Think Pat Schurmur would do a better job, yeah right....  He is very solid, and to say they lost to the Eagles on X's and O's, more like over confidence and hype coming off the "Minnesota Miracle" and believing the team is a team of destiny.  Love to see Bill Belichick try and win that game with that OL blocking so terribly and that defense playing their worst game of the year not getting off the football field.  Oh and Nick Foles playing the game of his career doing things he has not done all season long, that helped a little as well.

 

Sure the coach will do the standard thing and blame himself for the loss but the players play the game.  It is not like one could pinpoint specific coaching mistakes Zimmer did to lose that football game.

 

 

Here's the thing.  I can understand letting the coach off the hook and saying there is not much he can do if his players are not making the plays, IF the team hadn't been consistently making the same plays all season long.  It wasn't a case of having players who just couldn't get the job done.  They were making mistakes that were totally uncharacteristic of themselves.  At this point, the coach needs to step in and get the players' heads in the right place.  I just watched an interview of Xavier Rhodes where he said that they were fine until the pick-six and the momentum changed over to Philadelphia's side.  At this point, you can't have all the players running around like its a Chinese fire drill.   This is where a LEADER needs to step in and get them back to playing with confidence and proper concentration.  Coach Zimmer had the opportunity to do that at half-time.  He has normally been very good at that, but in this case, he dropped the ball.  It's on him, not the players.  When we had buffoonery like the 12 men in the huddle penalty in 2009, it didn't surprise me with Chilly running things.  With Zimmer, I was very surprised he couldn't find a way to right the ship.  He had a roster stacked with great players.  It was his responsibility to get them to play within the scheme he had been teaching them for several years.  As I said earlier, I expect that he will learn from this catastrophe, so it shouldn't happen again.  He has to learn from it.  There is no excuse.  You just don't get many opportunities that are as good as the Vikings had this year.

[RpMc]

To say, “it’s on him, not the players” completely absolves the players of any blame for not making the plays they had all year. 

The defense being outschemed by the Eagles is on Zimmer and the defensive staff. The players not being able to get themselves back up for a game following the Minneapolis Miracle is almost entirely on them. If it takes fancy halftime speeches for them to amp up for the NFC championship game.... this team is never going to win anything regardless of who the coach is.

Great players don’t need their coaches to be cheerleaders. If the team went down hill after the pick six, they’re mentally soft. 

[CriminalMind]

I to think Zimmer was massively outplayed. I think of Zimmer didn't crap the bed as much, we would have been in it better. Even got out coached the week before, but the team was able to pull it out

[Ozzy]

4 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

Here's the thing.  I can understand letting the coach off the hook and saying there is not much he can do if his players are not making the plays, IF the team hadn't been consistently making the same plays all season long.  It wasn't a case of having players who just couldn't get the job done.  They were making mistakes that were totally uncharacteristic of themselves.  At this point, the coach needs to step in and get the players' heads in the right place.  I just watched an interview of Xavier Rhodes where he said that they were fine until the pick-six and the momentum changed over to Philadelphia's side.  At this point, you can't have all the players running around like its a Chinese fire drill.   This is where a LEADER needs to step in and get them back to playing with confidence and proper concentration.  Coach Zimmer had the opportunity to do that at half-time.  He has normally been very good at that, but in this case, he dropped the ball.  It's on him, not the players.  When we had buffoonery like the 12 men in the huddle penalty in 2009, it didn't surprise me with Chilly running things.  With Zimmer, I was very surprised he couldn't find a way to right the ship.  He had a roster stacked with great players.  It was his responsibility to get them to play within the scheme he had been teaching them for several years.  As I said earlier, I expect that he will learn from this catastrophe, so it shouldn't happen again.  He has to learn from it.  There is no excuse.  You just don't get many opportunities that are as good as the Vikings had this year.

True, but you played most the year with a freaking backup QB and still won your division and got a 1st round bye.  Oh wait he was not your backup he was technically the 3rd string if Teddy was all good to go like some have said he was.  

 

Sure the coach provides leadership, but so do the players.  They struggled a great deal being spread out, just like the Saints did in the 2nd half the Eagles did as well.  Put four WRs or more on the field, and force it to the nickle corner or get a mismatch.  Newman struggled a ton those past two games and was really taken advantage of.  Not to mention the TE spot as well, not a big fan of Gedeon as a playmaker and coverage of the TEs has been an issue for them.  Barr is nothing great in coverage and neither is Kendricks even though he can run, both are better blitzing but hard to do with four wide.  Not sure coaching could fix Newman in coverage and Anthony Harris being out there is nothing great either.  

 

They do have some issues with the roster and that was taken advantage of them not even considering the QB.  It is not like they were the perfect team, where as in 1998 yeah that was arguably a worst loss because they were the better team.  In this game the Eagles were obviously the better team and before Wentz went down they were predicted to go to the Super Bowl by almost anyone.  Lucky for them they still have Wentz for the future and here we are with no QB at the moment.  

 

 

3 minutes ago, rpmwr19 said:

To say, “it’s on him, not the players” completely absolves the players of any blame for not making the plays they had all year. 

The defense being outschemed by the Eagles is on Zimmer and the defensive staff. The players not being able to get themselves back up for a game following the Minneapolis Miracle is almost entirely on them. If it takes fancy halftime speeches for them to amp up for the NFC championship game.... this team is never going to win anything regardless of who the coach is.

Great players don’t need their coaches to be cheerleaders. If the team went down hill after the pick six, they’re mentally soft. 

Agreed, and yeah at times they are mentally soft and really do not have many motivational leaders on the team.  Did have a few comeback wins but not many, games they were down they lost especially if down big like Pittsburgh.  Only real game where the 'offense' won them the game and the D played poorly was Washington.  The rest the defense carried them and the offense just did a little to win.

 

If one thinks coaching leadership would change the team totally, yeah right, and again who the heck would that be anyway...  

[Uncle Buck]

18 minutes ago, CriminalMind said:

I to think Zimmer was massively outplayed. I think of Zimmer didn't crap the bed as much, we would have been in it better. Even got out coached the week before, but the team was able to pull it out

Actually, I don't think he was outcoached in the Saints game.  We completely dominated them in the first half, and Zim should get a lot of credit for that.  IMO, the comeback in the second half should go to future Hall of Famer, Drew Brees.  He threw a number of passes where we were defending the receivers about as well as it could be done, but Brees' pinpoint accuracy enabled them to complete the passes anyway.

What I liked about the Saints game is that the Vikings players and coaching staff never gave up.  After total domination for half the game, they were finally challenged, and everyone stepped up to the challenge and found a way to get the win.  The complete opposite happened the following week against the Eagles, and their offense is arguably nowhere near as good as that of the Saints.

[Uncle Buck]

28 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

True, but you played most the year with a freaking backup QB and still won your division and got a 1st round bye.  Oh wait he was not your backup he was technically the 3rd string if Teddy was all good to go like some have said he was.  

 

Sure the coach provides leadership, but so do the players.  They struggled a great deal being spread out, just like the Saints did in the 2nd half the Eagles did as well.  Put four WRs or more on the field, and force it to the nickle corner or get a mismatch.  Newman struggled a ton those past two games and was really taken advantage of.  Not to mention the TE spot as well, not a big fan of Gedeon as a playmaker and coverage of the TEs has been an issue for them.  Barr is nothing great in coverage and neither is Kendricks even though he can run, both are better blitzing but hard to do with four wide.  Not sure coaching could fix Newman in coverage and Anthony Harris being out there is nothing great either.  

 

They do have some issues with the roster and that was taken advantage of them not even considering the QB.  It is not like they were the perfect team, where as in 1998 yeah that was arguably a worst loss because they were the better team.  In this game the Eagles were obviously the better team and before Wentz went down they were predicted to go to the Super Bowl by almost anyone.  Lucky for them they still have Wentz for the future and here we are with no QB at the moment.  

 

 

Agreed, and yeah at times they are mentally soft and really do not have many motivational leaders on the team.  Did have a few comeback wins but not many, games they were down they lost especially if down big like Pittsburgh.  Only real game where the 'offense' won them the game and the D played poorly was Washington.  The rest the defense carried them and the offense just did a little to win.

 

If one thinks coaching leadership would change the team totally, yeah right, and again who the heck would that be anyway...  

7

Coaching is a big part of it, but not all of it.  This game showed us how much we are really lacking in the quarterback department.  There are not many QB's who can get the players to rally around them, but when you have one who can, you really have something.  Although Case Keenum played well throughout the year, I could see how having a guy like Brett Favre in that spot might have made a big difference.  It's kind of like how Joe Montana calmed the players down in the huddle in the "John Candy Game."  That was something we are lacking on both sides of the ball.  

[Purplexing]

11 hours ago, rpmwr19 said:

Great players don’t need their coaches to be cheerleaders. If the team went down hill after the pick six, they’re mentally soft. 

The greater players went UPHILL after the pick six.  The Vikings couldn't hang with them... in a hostile environment.   The blame for that is shared between the players and the coaches.

However, that game was lost in the trenches, more so than in players' & coaches minds.

[swede700]

On 2/3/2018 at 5:26 PM, Uncle Buck said:

In reaction to the team's meltdown in the NFCCG, I am not saying he should be fired.  That would be a massive overreaction.  He IS a great coach, and I'm glad we have him.  At the same time, I really have to put the blame of the team's performance in the NFCCG on him.  Sure, the players were the ones who missed tackles, committed turnovers, etc., but when that happens in a game of that magnitude, it is the responsibility of the head coach to regroup them and settle them down.  As others have said, he was simply outcoached.  At this point, about all we can do is chalk it up to his having a bad game, which can happen to anyone.  Unfortunately, this happened in a situation where the stars have never been aligned so much in our favor.  I'm willing to give him a mulligan on this one, but this CANNOT happen again.  I hope he learns from the experience and the next time we are in that situation, he is a better leader.  You just can't have a letdown like that when the stakes are so high.  That's the difference between winners and losers - winners find a way to overcome adversity.  I still have faith in him, but if we see another performance like that in the playoffs it will be time to start asking some hard questions.  I hope it doesn't.

If the Eagles and the Chiefs had that same viewpoint, why does Andy Reid still have a job?

[Purplexing]

27 minutes ago, disaacs said:

If the Eagles and the Chiefs had that same viewpoint, why does Andy Reid still have a job?

Agree.  The criteria that Zimmer cannot have another bad performance by his team in the playoffs isn't reasonable, given that some circumstances are out of his control.

Some Vikings fans over-rated the Vikings chances, perhaps due to the CK to SD TD, and vastly underestimated the Eagles (defense and home field advantage).

[swede700]

2 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

Agree.  The criteria that Zimmer cannot have another bad performance by his team in the playoffs isn't reasonable, given that some circumstances are out of his control.

Some Vikings fans over-rated the Vikings chances, perhaps due to the CK to SD TD, and vastly underestimated the Eagles (defense and home field advantage).

I was one of them that underestimated the Eagles.  I didn't feel their defense was as good as the Vikings (which I still believe was proven last night...as that was one of the worst defensive games I've ever seen), but I underestimated how well their offense would perform...and that was the difference. 

I will grade Zimmer on whether he can consistently get the team to the playoffs, not whether he necessarily has a bad game in the playoffs.  Maybe, after some time, if he consistently can't win the big game in the playoffs, that sentiment may change, but it's still far too early to give him such a short leash.  That short leash syndrome is what got Marty Schottenheimer fired...and I don't think it's pure coincidence that the Chargers haven't truly been a factor since.    

[Uncle Buck]

2 hours ago, disaacs said:

If the Eagles and the Chiefs had that same viewpoint, why does Andy Reid still have a job?

I think you may have misunderstood my point.  I'm nowhere close to thinking we should fire Zimmer.  I'm not even at the point where I would start thinking about firing him.  I guess this loss mainly just took me out of a very long "honeymoon" phase where I was extremely confident that he is one of the three or four best coaches in the league.  He may actually be that good, but I just think I've taken him off the pedestal I had him on, and I'm now going to judge him on the performance of the team in the playoffs.  I expect this team to make it to the playoffs every year for a while now unless we have the bad luck of being ravaged by injuries like we were last year.

[Heimdallr]

1 hour ago, Purplexing said:

vastly underestimated the Eagles (defense and home field advantage).

I think everyone underestimated the Eagles. The coaches were phenomenal all season. I think they are very similar to the Patriots in that the coaches have put together a TEAM that is greater than the sum of the individual talent of the players. Also, I think they are a prime example of how important a great OL+DL is, and how much freedom that asset gives to the coordinators. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Heimdallr said:

I think everyone underestimated the Eagles. The coaches were phenomenal all season. I think they are very similar to the Patriots in that the coaches have put together a TEAM that is greater than the sum of the individual talent of the players. Also, I think they are a prime example of how important a great OL+DL is, and how much freedom that asset gives to the coordinators. 

I think that Pederson is a gutsy coach.  In a league that rewards coaches who try to win by minimizing risk, by making conservative calls, Pederson is a living, breathing, walking middle finger.  Hey is a lot like Sean Peyton to some extent.  I hope more coaches call games like Pederson...it might be the only way the NFL revives it's viewership!!