Does our defence look as good to anybody else as it does to me?

[VegasDan]

On 7/7/2019 at 9:55 PM, boratt said:

Mike Daniels > Pickett

Kenny Clark > Raji

Amos > Peprah

Preston > Zombo

Lowry/Gary/Fackrell > Bishop (they played 2-4 defense compared to our 3-3)

 

Martinez = Hawk

Alexander = Tramon

 

2010 rookie shields > king

Matthews > Zadarius

Collins > Savage

Woodson > Tramon

 

 

I think this defense has a chance to be similar to that one, honestly. Both in talent and also in fit. It’s a good fit of guys, who’s talents will be highlighted and weaknesses minimized, similar to in 2010.

2019 should have a better pass rush, 2010 a better secondary. But I do see this defense as being near the top of the league. 

And I see the 2019 secondary as being a really good mix of talents and skills that will compliment each other in a way that the sum together is greater than the individual parts.

You missed the most important defensive improvement:

  Pettine > Capers

[MrBobGray]

It's weird to me that people are trying to compare this defense to the 2010 defense.  They're very different units in terms of strengths and weaknesses.  This defense feels a lot more like 2014's than anything; deep group of pass rushers, interesting pieces in the secondary but no established stars, and an underwhelming LB corps.  

2010 had the advantage of having true blue chip elite players at a number of positions; Woodson, Collins and Matthews are probably the three best players from either defense, and I'd probably go T-4 with Raji/Clark.  On the other hand, the 2010 defense had a pass rush made up of Matthews, Raji and hopes and dreams, whereas the 2019 group makes up for the lack of top end talent with overall depth.  As a pass rush group, I'd take Matthews as the best outside rusher and 2010 Raji as the best inside rusher, but I'd definitely all four of Fackrell, Gary, and both Smiths before I take Zombo/Walden and I'd take Clark/Daniels/Adams/Lowry over Raji/Pickett/Jenkins/Wilson 10/10 times.  

The real question is what this secondary will look like; I have no idea how anyone can really project in either direction because there's a whole of stuff up in the air.  Will Alexander/Jackson take the second year jump?  What will Savage look like in his rookie year?  How does Amos play in Pettine's defense?  Can King stay healthy, and if so what will his play even look like?  It's easy in summer to assume the best outcome to all of these, but people did the same thing heading into 2016 and that didn't really play out.  We at least need Training Camp to even take a real stab at what this group will be.

[boratt]

bob gray that is true. A lot is left to play and they’re different defenses. Certainly time will show more. 

My initial comparison started based on boundary speed mixed with interior savvy, something both defenses shared. 

Woodson and Collins superiority was pointed out. I followed that up with this pass rush being superior.

your view of Rajis pass rush prowess to me is greatly skewed by the secondary he played with. As is the view of Daniels skewed by the secondaries and complimentary pieces he’s played with. I’d call Raji and daniels maybe equal with the edge to Daniels. Clark superior to both. But that’s my view using the context i see as important. I could be wrong.

now, everything could go wrong, but I have indications that I beleice are real from Savage, Alexander and King. Mainly from players and coaches. And I do believe I’m better than the average fanatic at deciphering coach speak and on the spot player praise from real stuff. But time will prove whether I’m as accurate as I think I am and I’m happy to let that play out.

As training camp progresses, I’ll be happy to admit my wrongs and adjust. However, I’m stating my opinions here because I have a different view than you and I like going on record and testing my skills. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by boratt

[SSG]

2 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

It's weird to me that people are trying to compare this defense to the 2010 defense.  They're very different units in terms of strengths and weaknesses.  This defense feels a lot more like 2014's than anything; deep group of pass rushers, interesting pieces in the secondary but no established stars, and an underwhelming LB corps.  

2010 had the advantage of having true blue chip elite players at a number of positions; Woodson, Collins and Matthews are probably the three best players from either defense, and I'd probably go T-4 with Raji/Clark.  On the other hand, the 2010 defense had a pass rush made up of Matthews, Raji and hopes and dreams, whereas the 2019 group makes up for the lack of top end talent with overall depth.  As a pass rush group, I'd take Matthews as the best outside rusher and 2010 Raji as the best inside rusher, but I'd definitely all four of Fackrell, Gary, and both Smiths before I take Zombo/Walden and I'd take Clark/Daniels/Adams/Lowry over Raji/Pickett/Jenkins/Wilson 10/10 times.  

The real question is what this secondary will look like; I have no idea how anyone can really project in either direction because there's a whole of stuff up in the air.  Will Alexander/Jackson take the second year jump?  What will Savage look like in his rookie year?  How does Amos play in Pettine's defense?  Can King stay healthy, and if so what will his play even look like?  It's easy in summer to assume the best outcome to all of these, but people did the same thing heading into 2016 and that didn't really play out.  We at least need Training Camp to even take a real stab at what this group will be.

If you view Raji and Clark as a wash how could you possibly take Daniels/ Adams/ Lowry 10 out of 10 times over Pickett/ Jenkins/ Wilson?  While Daniels is probably a slightly better player than Pickett at this stage in their careers (because of his pass rush ability), I don't think there is anyway one could put Cullen Jenkins and Montravius Adams in the same category.  Jenkins being in that 2010 group would have me picking them in every situation.  

I agree with the premise of your post though.  I see no comparison between this defense and the 2010 defense unless one of the Smith's and one of the new Safeties are all pro caliber players next year.  The depth that 2010 defense had in the secondary was incredible.  And while there wasn't the hypothetical depth at edge rusher that we could have this year, that 2010 team had a great pass rush (only 1 team had more sacks).  CM3, Raji and Jenkins was a helluva 3-some of pass rushers.  

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by SSG

[SSG]

2 hours ago, boratt said:

bob gray that is true. A lot is left to play and they’re different defenses. Certainly time will show more. 

My initial comparison started based on boundary speed mixed with interior savvy, something both defenses shared. 

Woodson and Collins superiority was pointed out. I followed that up with this pass rush being superior.

your view of Rajis pass rush prowess to me is greatly skewed by the secondary he played with. As is the view of Daniels skewed by the secondaries and complimentary pieces he’s played with. I’d call Raji and daniels maybe equal with the edge to Daniels. Clark superior to both. But that’s my view using the context i see as important. I could be wrong.

now, everything could go wrong, but I have indications that I beleice are real from Savage, Alexander and King. Mainly from players and coaches. And I do believe I’m better than the average fanatic at deciphering coach speak and on the spot player praise from real stuff. But time will prove whether I’m as accurate as I think I am and I’m happy to let that play out.

As training camp progresses, I’ll be happy to admit my wrongs and adjust. However, I’m stating my opinions here because I have a different view than you and I like going on record and testing my skills. 

I could never stand BJ Raji but there is simply no comparing that 2010 version of Raji to the 30 year old Mike Daniels we seen last year.  

[TheBitzMan]

22 minutes ago, SSG said:

I could never stand BJ Raji but there is simply no comparing that 2010 version of Raji to the 30 year old Mike Daniels we seen last year.  

I mean...why?

[SSG]

17 hours ago, TheBitzMan said:

I mean...why?

Unsure if you are being facetious or it's sarcasm, but..... it seems like after that 2010 season he had a switch that he only was willing to hit on occasion.  He was consistently overweight and lazy.  He pissed away elite abilities because of an inability to keep out of the McDonalds drive thu lane.  Unfortunate given the huge investment.  

[Joe]

36 minutes ago, SSG said:

Unsure if you are being facetious or it's sarcasm, but..... it seems like after that 2010 season he had a switch that he only was willing to hit on occasion.  He was consistently overweight and lazy.  He pissed away elite abilities because of an inability to keep out of the McDonalds drive thu lane.  Unfortunate given the huge investment.  

Or he was yet another frustrated player in a bad system where he had to shoulder all the work with no help whatsoever. You look at those defenses from 2011-2014 and it's Raji, the rookie year of Mike Daniels, a winded and aged Pickett, and a bunch of scrubs. Letting Jenkins go was the worst move TT ever made as a GM and it showed up big time in 2011 and lingered. 

 

21 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

It's weird to me that people are trying to compare this defense to the 2010 defense.  They're very different units in terms of strengths and weaknesses.  This defense feels a lot more like 2014's than anything; deep group of pass rushers, interesting pieces in the secondary but no established stars, and an underwhelming LB corps sparing the talents of Blake Martinez.  

2010 had the advantage of having true blue chip elite players at a number of positions; Woodson, Collins and Matthews are probably the three best players from either defense, and I'd probably go T-4 with Raji/Clark.  On the other hand, the 2010 defense had a pass rush made up of Matthews, Raji and hopes and dreams, whereas the 2019 group makes up for the lack of top end talent with overall depth.  As a pass rush group, I'd take Matthews as the best outside rusher and 2010 Raji as the best inside rusher, but I'd definitely all four of Fackrell, Gary, and both Smiths before I take Zombo/Walden and I'd take Clark/Daniels/Adams/Lowry over Raji/Pickett/Jenkins/Wilson 10/10 times.  

The real question is what this secondary will look like; I have no idea how anyone can really project in either direction because there's a whole of stuff up in the air.  Will Alexander/Jackson take the second year jump?  What will Savage look like in his rookie year?  How does Amos play in Pettine's defense?  Can King stay healthy, and if so what will his play even look like?  It's easy in summer to assume the best outcome to all of these, but people did the same thing heading into 2016 and that didn't really play out.  We at least need Training Camp to even take a real stab at what this group will be.

Fixed...

[TheBitzMan]

1 hour ago, SSG said:

Unsure if you are being facetious or it's sarcasm, but..... it seems like after that 2010 season he had a switch that he only was willing to hit on occasion.  He was consistently overweight and lazy.  He pissed away elite abilities because of an inability to keep out of the McDonalds drive thu lane.  Unfortunate given the huge investment.  

Was just curious because Raji haters are few and far between. The Packers' investment paid off with a pick six in the NFCCG and a Super Bowl. I think you are being a little harsh on a guy who battled injuries and was a key part of a Super Bowl team. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by TheBitzMan

[SSG]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

Or he was yet another frustrated player in a bad system where he had to shoulder all the work with no help whatsoever. You look at those defenses from 2011-2014 and it's Raji, the rookie year of Mike Daniels, a winded and aged Pickett, and a bunch of scrubs. Letting Jenkins go was the worst move TT ever made as a GM and it showed up big time in 2011 and lingered. 

 

Fixed...

I've got a hard time blaming a system for  a guy who was pretty clearly one of the laziest players on the team.  It was a yearly thing for Raji to show up to camp 30-40 lbs over weight and completely out of shape.  While the system didn't help, his putrid work ethic is why is NFL career didn't last long.  There were plenty of teams that ran different systems that had the opportunity to add him to that second contract and they stayed away from his lazy *** like the he was the plague.  

Completely agree about it being a mistake to let Jenkins walk.  

[Joe]

6 minutes ago, SSG said:

I've got a hard time blaming a system for  a guy who was pretty clearly one of the laziest players on the team.  It was a yearly thing for Raji to show up to camp 30-40 lbs over weight and completely out of shape.  While the system didn't help, his putrid work ethic is why is NFL career didn't last long.  There were plenty of teams that ran different systems that had the opportunity to add him to that second contract and they stayed away from his lazy *** like the he was the plague.  

Completely agree about it being a mistake to let Jenkins walk.  

Let me reword it: Raji wasn't motivated because he knew that no matter what his condition may be, he'd be expected to do way too much with little to no help. I can't see how anyone else's work ethic wouldn't be affected by the environment around them. It's why Randy Moss bombed in Oakland. Do remember that Raji willingly walked away from football.

[SSG]

1 hour ago, TheBitzMan said:

Was just curious because Raji haters are few and far between. The Packers' investment paid off with a pick six in the NFCCG and a Super Bowl. I think you are being a little harsh on a guy who battled injuries and was a key part of a Super Bowl team. 

He was a top 10 pick who had all but eaten himself of the league by time his second contract opportunity came around.  Yeah we got a Super Bowl with him being the 4th or 5th best player  on that side of the field but I fully disagree with the idea that investment paid off because he had one really good season.  I know he got to the pro bowl in 2011 based on his name but he was a very average player that year.

I don't think I'm being harsh at all.  He was one of the laziest players I've ever seen dawn the Packer uniform.  His effort after that 2010 season was nothing short of disgusting.  Thank goodness he rejected that 8 million dollar per year long term deal.  

[OneTwoSixFive]

22 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

The real question is what this secondary will look like; I have no idea how anyone can really project in either direction because there's a whole of stuff up in the air.  Will Alexander/Jackson take the second year jump?  What will Savage look like in his rookie year?  How does Amos play in Pettine's defense?  Can King stay healthy, and if so what will his play even look like?  It's easy in summer to assume the best outcome to all of these, but people did the same thing heading into 2016 and that didn't really play out.  We at least need Training Camp to even take a real stab at what this group will be.

I'm going with    and    

[SSG]

3 minutes ago, Joe said:

Let me reword it: Raji wasn't motivated because he knew that no matter what his condition may be, he'd be expected to do way too much with little to no help. I can't see how anyone else's work ethic wouldn't be affected by the environment around them. It's why Randy Moss bombed in Oakland. Do remember that Raji willingly walked away from football.

Sorry, I don't buy that.  That either makes him lazy  or a terrible teammate if he's willing to show up to camp 30 or 40 lbs overweight because he didn't like the system.  Green Bay tried like hell to fix that defensive line but wasn't successful at doing so (Worthy-2nd, Daniels-3rd, Jones-1st).  Raji was a guy who turned down 8 million dollars a year because he wanted to be the highest paid DT in the NFL.... there is no such thing as expecting too much from a guy who's wanting that sort of pay day IMO.

BJ Raji walked away from football because he was a veteran minimum caliber of player who had no future in the NFL.  He was a year by year rental who had wasted his chances of a long term contract away.  

[MrBobGray]

2 hours ago, SSG said:

Unsure if you are being facetious or it's sarcasm, but..... it seems like after that 2010 season he had a switch that he only was willing to hit on occasion.  He was consistently overweight and lazy.  He pissed away elite abilities because of an inability to keep out of the McDonalds drive thu lane.  Unfortunate given the huge investment.  

Consistently overweight?  Do you have any kind of source for this, because he looked more or less the same to me through at least 2013.  I don't buy the idea that his drop in performance had anything to do with laziness.  There's a number of factors:

• He was playing a preposterously high number of snaps for a 340 lb NT:

Quote

According to official playing-time documents, Raji has played in 1,738 of (82.6 percent) of the Packers' 2,103 defensive snaps over the last two seasons and is the only nose tackle to play over 800 snaps in both 2010 and 2011. The Packers actually scaled back the percentage of snaps in which Raji played last season (from 86.1 percent in 2010 to 79.5 percent), but the 2009 first-round pick still saw his production drop from 39 tackles and 6.5 sacks to 22 tackles and three sacks.

• The group around him got much worse in the pass rush.  Pickett was nothing more than a space eater from 2011 on, Jenkins left, and the guys tapped to replace him (Mike Neal, Datone Jones) did not do so.  In 2011 and most of 2012 Raji and Matthews were the only plus rushers on the team who played regular snaps. 
• The secondary got worse as well.  With Collins gone and Woodson aging the coverage was no longer good enough to force QBs to hold the ball with the same regularity.  

Raji clearly lost interest in the game by the end of his career, but I don't think it's fair to say that he threw away elite talent out of laziness.  The Packers simply didn't field a legitimate NFL front seven for a few years, and relied on their two studs to basically just hold it all together.