Greg C. Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Mr Bad Example said: Nah, Hawk was rarely as aggressive as Martinez. IMO Hawk DID get over-hated, but he was a non-impact player. Martinez isn't elite-elite, but I'd rate him as a Pro Bowl talent (i.e. one of the better ILBs in the league, but not one of the best 2 or 3) Quick stat comparison of Hawk's first three seasons and Martinez's: Hawk: 3 interceptions, 2 forced fumbles, 7.5 sacks, 15 tackles for loss, 14 QB hits Martinez: 2 interceptions, 1 forced fumble, 7 sacks, 24 tackles for loss, 9 QB hits Edited July 2, 2019 by Greg C. additional stats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boratt Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Well, I guess that’s the difference in perception from a 5th overall pick to a 4th round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, boratt said: Well, I guess that’s the difference in perception from a 5th overall pick to a 4th round pick. Here's a question. I feel like very few watched college then, if even now other than the draft. How was Hawk so ******* incredibly aggressive and talented in college and so mediocre after. He looked better than all these top ilb guys lately. Dude was insane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg C. Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 37 minutes ago, Norm said: Here's a question. I feel like very few watched college then, if even now other than the draft. How was Hawk so ******* incredibly aggressive and talented in college and so mediocre after. He looked better than all these top ilb guys lately. Dude was insane My own pet theory is that he was a workout warrior in college and developed his body to the level of a pro player. He was a man among boys. But when he got to the pros, he was not able to develop his body any further. He had already maxed out his potential. So he got passed up by other players who had more natural talent but had not fully developed their bodies in college. Not that I saw it coming. I thought he was almost a shoo-in to be a star in the NFL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 23 minutes ago, Greg C. said: My own pet theory is that he was a workout warrior in college and developed his body to the level of a pro player. He was a man among boys. But when he got to the pros, he was not able to develop his body any further. He had already maxed out his potential. So he got passed up by other players who had more natural talent but had not fully developed their bodies in college. Not that I saw it coming. I thought he was almost a shoo-in to be a star in the NFL. I've said this before but I actually think he lifted TOO much in the pros and got wrapped too tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg C. Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 33 minutes ago, Norm said: I've said this before but I actually think he lifted TOO much in the pros and got wrapped too tight. Me too. He looked musclebound and stiff out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Hawk was very good in the 4-3 defense that we had in his first years under Sanders (and Bates, I think?) and made a really good tandem with Nick Barnett. When we hired Capers and moved to the 3-4, Hawk gained muscle mass and was slower and stiffer, Barnett was good but he was going to lose if an OL got their hands on him. I think Hawk would have had a different career trajectory had he played for one of the Tampa-2 teams, or remained in a 4-3 base. When Capers was brought to Green Bay with his 3-4, I believe we were only competing with Dallas, Miami, New England, Pittsburgh, and San Diego for the 3-4 body type players. Arizona may have switched around the same time. Capers defense allowed Woodson, Collins, Matthews, and Jenkins to thrive, but lessened the impact of Aaron Kampman, AJ Hawk, and Brandon Chillar. Hawk was a good enough football player to still be productive with the change. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 10 hours ago, ThatJerkDave said: Hawk was very good in the 4-3 defense that we had in his first years under Sanders (and Bates, I think?) and made a really good tandem with Nick Barnett. When we hired Capers and moved to the 3-4, Hawk gained muscle mass and was slower and stiffer, Barnett was good but he was going to lose if an OL got their hands on him. I think Hawk would have had a different career trajectory had he played for one of the Tampa-2 teams, or remained in a 4-3 base. When Capers was brought to Green Bay with his 3-4, I believe we were only competing with Dallas, Miami, New England, Pittsburgh, and San Diego for the 3-4 body type players. Arizona may have switched around the same time. Capers defense allowed Woodson, Collins, Matthews, and Jenkins to thrive, but lessened the impact of Aaron Kampman, AJ Hawk, and Brandon Chillar. Hawk was a good enough football player to still be productive with the change. Yah, you nailed it. Hawk made most of his impact plays playing in a 4-3. Once he flipped inside, he got tackles, but we know where a lot of them were, and he didn't make many plays in the passing game. I have nothing but love for the guy, though. Durable, leader. Much respect for Hawk. Can't help but think how much better his numbers would have been had he played in that 4-3 for his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 14 hours ago, Greg C. said: Quick stat comparison of Hawk's first three seasons and Martinez's: Hawk: 3 interceptions, 2 forced fumbles, 7.5 sacks, 15 tackles for loss, 14 QB hits Martinez: 2 interceptions, 1 forced fumble, 7 sacks, 24 tackles for loss, 9 QB hits It's been said already, but over the rest of Hawk's career, he had 12.5 sacks, 6 interceptions and 1 forced fumble. So in a 4-3 defense for three years, Hawk had 3 interceptions, 2 forced fumbles, 7.5 sacks. And in a 3-4 defense for 7 years, Hawk had 6 interceptions, 1 forced fumble, 12.5 sacks. People forget that AJ Hawk was actually very promising his first year, taking second in defensive rookie of the year voting. Nobody thought he sucked until about year 4 where we switched to a 3-4. I don't know what you're trying to do, but if you're trying to suggest Martinez isn't all that great because his numbers are similar to Hawk's, you're forgetting how good everyone thought Hawk was his rookie year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBobGray Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Hawk was drafted to be a 4-3 Will backer at a time when that was a premium position. He was great at that role; let him run the play down from behind and shut down the flats and he was a stud. Part of the problem for Hawk was that he changed his body comp to bang inside in the 3-4 at the same time the league was devaluing the run game. As the premium grew on faster, more multiple defenses the changes he made worked against him. He cut weight by the end but by then his legs were going. In an alternate universe where the Pack stick with the 4-3 he's probably thought of in the same tier as Lavonte David. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Isn't it the goal to find the player no matter what round we find him in? There are many examples of players taken in later rounds (or not drafted at all) who become fine players or end up in the HOF. Hawk is vilified for not being the second coming of Brian Urlacher because he was taken so high. He was steady Eddie if nothing else. How many guys have we taken high never fulfill their potential because they couldn't stay on the field? Martinez is a fine player who we found in the 4th. We found a great one that late in Bak who is now considered one of the best LT in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packerjmf Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 The best thing about Hawk IMO was his availability. Given how prevalent injuries are in this league (and especially for us), it's remarkable he only missed 2 games in 9 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg C. Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Outpost31 said: It's been said already, but over the rest of Hawk's career, he had 12.5 sacks, 6 interceptions and 1 forced fumble. So in a 4-3 defense for three years, Hawk had 3 interceptions, 2 forced fumbles, 7.5 sacks. And in a 3-4 defense for 7 years, Hawk had 6 interceptions, 1 forced fumble, 12.5 sacks. People forget that AJ Hawk was actually very promising his first year, taking second in defensive rookie of the year voting. Nobody thought he sucked until about year 4 where we switched to a 3-4. I don't know what you're trying to do, but if you're trying to suggest Martinez isn't all that great because his numbers are similar to Hawk's, you're forgetting how good everyone thought Hawk was his rookie year. I was just suggesting that the two players are pretty similar in terms of impact. I would say that Hawk, like Martinez, was an above average player but not elite. My memory of Hawk's rookie year differs from yours. I seem to recall that he was quite good but did not make as many big plays as expected. This was explained by his role on the defense, having to stay home instead of freelancing. And while the switch to a 3-4 defense did not do him any favors, his numbers during the first two years of being a 3-4 inside linebacker were pretty similar to his numbers during his first three years. So I think it was more a case of him simply declining with age a little faster than expected. Edited July 4, 2019 by Greg C. typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Trace Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 I think the Hawk comparison is actually slightly unfair to Martinez, although I take the general point. Still, Martinez has a much better nose for the football than Hawk ever did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 75 years from now when Im about to die, I'm going to say goodbye to my children and then log on to this site one more time to witness and participate in an AJ Hawk debate that will still be happening for reasons that remain entirely unclear. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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