Thelonebillsfan Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Just now, Joe_is_the_best said: There can be MANY factors all at once. Yes there is discrimination & racism, but there's also broken families, well-intentioned but unhelpful reforms, cultural (not racial) issues, etc. It's not just 1 thing. Okay but that's not really the answer to the question, that's reaffirming that there are material reasons, not biological reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hope- Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, Joe_is_the_best said: There can be MANY factors all at once. Yes there is discrimination & racism, but there's also broken families, well-intentioned but unhelpful reforms, cultural (not racial) issues, etc. It's not just 1 thing. what causes the broken families? what creates the culture? are people choosing freely to break up their families? are they choosing freely to immerse themselves in violence? or are they being subjected to the violence of the state and picking from the options available to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, Thelonebillsfan said: Yes but that's not an instructive critique. Racism individually certainly drives actions, implicit biases are rampant in a hierarchical society. But to address that systemic issue you have to address the roots of them, what causes the hierarchy to emerge in this way? What superstructural elements create it? What is the superstructure, what is the base? IMO, the answer to the issue is not to mono focus on these individual incredibly violent acts, though we should address them always, it's to maintain the structural critique, which posits that the entire structural institution of what we call "police" here must be dealt with in some capacity beyond reformism and that the elements of society that create their ability to oppress and cajol must also be reckoned with at the same time. You can, and should, solve both, not just one or the other. I’ve made my own arguments about structural racism resulting in black households being poorer. I’m just uncomfortable with the assertion that police brutalize the poor because they’re poor, and that black people happen to be a disproportionately large amount of poor people. I know Marxists like to boil down everything exclusively into class conflict, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 1 minute ago, -Hope- said: i think that's part of why racial capitalism is a useful framework. when you understand capitalism as inherently racialized, the "race vs class" argument more or less melts away, and it starts to make total sense that, for example, police in the US originated in part as slave catching patrols but also as private armies to crack down on organized labor. the group differentiation was class and race simultaneously. Which is why until the labor movement was broken in the 30's you see that racial politics and labor are inexorably intertwined in this country. Hell the first party to run a black man on the ticket was the Communist Party. They're two parts of the same whole, distinct but intermingled always. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_is_the_best Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 5 minutes ago, -Hope- said: lol it's literally not. if you think people aren't being coerced into cyclical violence and poverty by systemic factors, then the only remaining option is that they're choosing to do so of their own volition. Nope. They aren't always coerced into violence. That is NOT true. The amount of melanin in your skin doesn't make you violent. I reject your false dichotomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 1 minute ago, -Hope- said: what causes the broken families? what creates the culture? are people choosing freely to break up their families? are they choosing freely to immerse themselves in violence? or are they being subjected to the violence of the state and picking from the options available to them? Some absolutely are. And that's all races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 1 minute ago, redsoxsuck05 said: I’ve made my own arguments about structural racism resulting in black households being poorer. I’m just uncomfortable with the assertion that police brutalize the poor because they’re poor, and that black people happen to be a disproportionately large amount of poor people. I know Marxists like to boil down everything exclusively into class conflict, so... It's not just being poor, it's about your relational connection to a lot of things. Class is more than just "how much individual capital do you possess", it's a systemic and broad based creation of material conditions that includes and favors, but does not only encompass, things like poverty. I made that point simple so as to address a simple question, but there is an incredibly broad based and complex answer to the question of "what creates a class in relation to the hierarchy and what elements under the system are used to keep it downtrodden" that doesn't really lend itself here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCoy Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 11 minutes ago, Mossburg said: 12 minutes ago, Mesa_Titan said: Woooo is this thread a dumpster fire or what? I mean to be fair, this is about as civil a discussion you can possibly have on the matter between online strangers. Yeah, I'm legit shocked tbh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, DawgX said: Some absolutely are. And that's all races. So do black men leave their families because they are black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCoy Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 I ran out of likes, but just know I **** with you heavy @Thelonebillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hope- Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, Joe_is_the_best said: Nope. They aren't always coerced into violence. That is NOT true. The amount of melanin in your skin doesn't make you violent. I reject your false dichotomy. 3 minutes ago, DawgX said: Some absolutely are. And that's all races. for the love of god, people. obviously some people across groups will do bad things of their own volition. but the question here is why violence and poverty are more endemic in black communities than in nonblack ones. so your options are either that systemic factors create that gap, or black people themselves do of their own volition. it's not a false dichotomy, it's right there in front of you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_is_the_best Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Thelonebillsfan said: In what way. Either eugenics are real (spoilers, eugenics are not real and IQ is bull****), or material conditions create these problems. You can't have both. What? I never mentioned eugenics. All I'm saying is there are factors that aren't racial. THERE ARE RACIAL FACTORS I AGREE. Not every explanation is racial. That's all. Edited August 27, 2020 by Joe_is_the_best 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Just now, TheRealMcCoy said: I ran out of likes, but just know I **** with you heavy @Thelonebillsfan Solidarity brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: So do black men leave their families because they are black? Nope. For a long time blacks were actually more likely to stay intact as a family. That changed starting in the 60s I believe. I know what you're trying to do though. It won't work unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_is_the_best Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 8 minutes ago, Thelonebillsfan said: Okay but that's not really the answer to the question, that's reaffirming that there are material reasons, not biological reasons. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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