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VanS

If you didn't think Joe Burrow was a 1st rounder last year, why would you think he's one this year?

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23 minutes ago, VanS said:

So you're betting on him being an outlier?  Drew Brees is unique.  There aren't many short unathletic weak arm QBs making it to the Hall of Fame.  And that's with having the good luck of being paired with a genius offensive coach like Sean Payton.

Joe Borrow is athletic. And does he have a rocket? No, but if you are going to call his arm weak, you will lose that last .5% of credibility that you are clinging to.

23 minutes ago, VanS said:

I'd rather bet on the guys with the elite tools and intangibles rather than the guys without the elite tools and hoping they have outlier careers like Brees. 

You do realize how long the list of failed QB's with elite tools is, right? You can't be a mental midget and play this game. Plain and simple.

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1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

You don't see how that could be flawed? Or how that bias could make you overlook certain good QBs without those traits? Because clearly history indicates you don't need a cannon or be an elite athlete to be an elite QB or a hall of famer. 

Note that I said that is where I start.  Obviously if I like a guy's film eventhough he lacks ideal measurables I will not just ignore him because he's not a freak athlete.  However, if I don't particularly like the film and you have subpar attributes I will not give you the benefit of the doubt.   

I hope you understand I'm not impressed with Joe Burrow's tape either when I watch him play.  So this isn't a case of me being all about attributes.  Its always a combination for me of tape, tools, and intangibles.

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44 minutes ago, VanS said:

I hope you understand I'm not impressed with Joe Burrow's tape either when I watch him play.  So this isn't a case of me being all about attributes.  Its always a combination for me of tape, tools, and intangibles.

I just don't understand how you can look at this and not be impressed. It makes me think you don't know what you're looking for.

 

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2 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

I asked this before and never got an answer - why do you think QBs peak at around age 27-29?

@VanS I have a feeling that you won't answer this because it throws a massive wrench into your line of thinking.

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6 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

But how can you say that knowing the precedent of guys like Brady, Brees, Montana, Young, and countless other that improved significantly throughout their playing careers. I’d completely agree with your statement was for running QBs, who typically peak much sooner...but pocket passers can continue to improve well into their 30s. 

I can only speak on players I've seen play.  Montana and Young were before my time.  With regard to Brady and Brees, I think you can't overlook the importance of Hall of Fame caliber coaching in their case.  Brees was considered an average to above average starting QB before he got with Sean Payton.  If he never plays for Payton does he ever become a Hall of Famer?  I'm not so sure.   With regard to Brady he did win a Super Bowl his first year starting.  Sure he was a game manager early on but so were many young QBs.  He was always clutch and looked good from the jump.

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6 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

I asked this before and never got an answer - why do you think QBs peak at around age 27-29?

Same reason basketball players like Jordan and Kobe peaked at those ages.  That age is typically when a player is at his peak both mentally and physically.  At 27 you're still near your physical peak and you have the benefit of many years of experience to hone your craft. 

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6 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

You do realize how long the list of failed QB's with elite tools is, right? You can't be a mental midget and play this game. Plain and simple.

Yes.  That's why I said elite physical tools AND intangibles.

If you noticed I am not really hyping up Oregon QB Justin Herbert in this year's draft eventhough from a tools perspective he's elite.  I don't like his intangibles so eventhough he typically has the sort of tools I would look for in a QB I would not want to draft him.

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4 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

I just don't understand how you can look at this and not be impressed. It makes me think you don't know what you're looking for.

 

I don't judge players off just one play.  That play was good but not really that exceptional.  Guys like Deshaun Watson do stuff like that every game.  

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4 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

@VanS I have a feeling that you won't answer this because it throws a massive wrench into your line of thinking.

I have no idea why you think that question/answer would contradict anything I've said.  Nonetheless I did respond to it.  Hope the answer was satisfactory. 

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11 hours ago, VanS said:

That play was good but not really that exceptional.  Guys like Deshaun Watson do stuff like that every game.  

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16 hours ago, VanS said:

I don't judge players off just one play.  That play was good but not really that exceptional.  Guys like Deshaun Watson do stuff like that every game.  

You don't base them off an ENTIRE season's worth of play apparently.  You can't watch Joe Burrow this year and say he hasn't played like a FRP.

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16 hours ago, VanS said:

Yes.  That's why I said elite physical tools AND intangibles.

In the last 20 years, how many QBs do you think have elite physical tools AND elite tangibles?  That list is ridiculously short.

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1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

You don't base them off an ENTIRE season's worth of play apparently.  You can't watch Joe Burrow this year and say he hasn't played like a FRP.

I can because I look at HOW you have success not just whether you get it done.  Joe Burrow looks more like the beneficiary of a great scheme and talent around him than a guy who is dominating based on elite talent.  

Also you gotta understand all years in college football aren't created equal.  Some years have more talent than others.  This year was a down year for talent IMO.  Its why I'm not really looking forward to this year's draft.  I don't see that many difference makers at the next level. 

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1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

In the last 20 years, how many QBs do you think have elite physical tools AND elite tangibles?  That list is ridiculously short.

In the last 2 years I would say Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. 

You're right that its rare to find elite tools and intangibles.  Its why I don't rate a QB as an elite high first round talent every year.  Greatness is rare.  Its not something that comes around every year.

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