2017-18 Offseason Talk

[CWood21]

On 9/5/2017 at 1:33 PM, sdrawkcab321 said:

There was a BS rumor going around a few days ago that the cavs and pels were close to a deal. All the casuals on twitter ate it up as fact. 

New Orleans is gonna live and die by the AD/Cousins duo, or at least until the deadline if rumors come out that DMC is gonna walk.

[11sanchez11]

Is IT a super leader? I was listening to the Lowe Post earlier today and it was about leadership in the greatest sports dynasties of all time (even the MJ Bulls didn't even make the list) and they mention that the Cavs don't really have that guy. The only NBA teams that made the list were the Duncan Spurs and Russell Celtics, with obviously two of the greatest teammates ever. Is IT anywhere in that stratosphere where he can gel a team together and get their best? I doubt it and being second fiddle to Bron would make it hard to be that.

[J-ALL-DAY]

So the ESPN top 100 rankings or whatever they are, have Melo ranked like #64 just ahead of Marcus Smart?

The utter disrespect is disgusting. 

[JohnChimpo]

10 hours ago, 11sanchez11 said:

Is IT a super leader? I was listening to the Lowe Post earlier today and it was about leadership in the greatest sports dynasties of all time (even the MJ Bulls didn't even make the list) and they mention that the Cavs don't really have that guy. The only NBA teams that made the list were the Duncan Spurs and Russell Celtics, with obviously two of the greatest teammates ever. Is IT anywhere in that stratosphere where he can gel a team together and get their best? I doubt it and being second fiddle to Bron would make it hard to be that.

By that logic, of course IT is not a "super leader" because they are saying not even LeBron is one. If he's not, I'm not sure if there is even one in the NBA at all currently. I'd be interested to know the criteria if the Duncan Spurs were listed and the MJ Bulls were not.

[11sanchez11]

18 minutes ago, JohnChimpo said:

By that logic, of course IT is not a "super leader" because they are saying not even LeBron is one. If he's not, I'm not sure if there is even one in the NBA at all currently. I'd be interested to know the criteria if the Duncan Spurs were listed and the MJ Bulls were not.

I think Lebron is a leader in the sense he gets everybody do their job at a high level. I don't think he is the dude that creates a super cohesive unit and culture. KLove would agree and Kyrie just asked to be traded. Idk if any stars would qualify (actually they mention Damian Lillard edit: and probably Dirk) but role players might (Barbosa, Iggy, etc.).

The dude that wrote the book said that the teams had to do something unique to qualify (I don't necessarily agree). And 6 in 8 isn't unique in sport history. Going to the playoffs for 20 years straight and winning 5 titles is more unique according to him. The book was about the best dynasties and he found out that they all had one incredible leader over the dynasty. 

[JohnChimpo]

8 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

I think Lebron is a leader in the sense he gets everybody do their job at a high level. I don't think he is the dude that creates a super cohesive unit and culture. KLove would agree and Kyrie just asked to be traded. Idk if any stars would qualify (actually they mention Damian Lillard) but role players might (Barbosa, Iggy, etc.).

The dude that wrote the book said that the teams had to do something unique to qualify (I don't necessarily agree). And 6 in 8 isn't unique in sport history. Going to the playoffs for 20 years straight and winning 5 titles is more unique according to him. The book was about the best dynasties and he found out that they all had one incredible leader over the dynasty. 

Interesting. Those standards for a dynasty seem next to impossible. The team would have to have a great coach/front office as well to sustain that kind of success.

[Mox]

Winning 6/8 titles is way more impressive than making the playoffs 20 years in a row.

[11sanchez11]

24 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

Winning 6/8 titles is way more impressive than making the playoffs 20 years in a row.

I don't disagree but it isn't necessarily unique in the sports world, which was one of his criteria I believe. But they also won 5 titles and were generally one of the top 2/3 teams the entire time which was obviously factored in. The Magic Lakers didn't even make the list and they went to 8 Finals in like a decade I believe.

1 hour ago, JohnChimpo said:

Those standards for a dynasty seem next to impossible.

Those were the standards for the greatest (16) dynasties, not dynasties in general.

[sdrawkcab321]

2 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

So the ESPN top 100 rankings or whatever they are, have Melo ranked like #64 just ahead of Marcus Smart?

The utter disrespect is disgusting. 

ESPN caters towards casual fans so it's really not a surprise. 

[showtime]

2 hours ago, 11sanchez11 said:

I think Lebron is a leader in the sense he gets everybody do their job at a high level. I don't think he is the dude that creates a super cohesive unit and culture. KLove would agree and Kyrie just asked to be traded. Idk if any stars would qualify (actually they mention Damian Lillard edit: and probably Dirk) but role players might (Barbosa, Iggy, etc.).

The dude that wrote the book said that the teams had to do something unique to qualify (I don't necessarily agree). And 6 in 8 isn't unique in sport history. Going to the playoffs for 20 years straight and winning 5 titles is more unique according to him. The book was about the best dynasties and he found out that they all had one incredible leader over the dynasty. 

I think LeBron is especially great for guys who thrive playing off-ball.  Mike Miller, Ray Allen, etc.  For guys who need the basketball in their hands to score and don't need offense created for them, it can possibly wear on them over years playing with LeBron:  Dwyane Wade, Kyrie Irving, etc.  You have to remember, Kevin Love was roughly a 25/12 guy in Minnesota who was the focal point of their offense.  Not only was he scoring a lot, but Love was an awesome passer out of the post.  So the entire offense facilitated around Kevin Love.  Going from that, to a team where he goes multiple possessions without touching the basketball is really hard.  It's obviously much easier to swallow when you're having success as a team, but it is still hard.  Kevin Love's value has plummeted massively since becoming a member of the Cavaliers, but that's the price he was willing to play to finally be apart of a winning organization.  While, Kyrie Irving has gained a ton of valuable experience and knowledge during his tenure with LeBron - I agree with his decision to leave right now.  Go off and get out of LeBron's shadow; plus, there is a pretty decent chance LeBron leaves the Cavs high and dry and that team is really poorly constructed for life after LeBron had Irving stayed.

[11sanchez11]

10 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

Many would argue neither Curry nor Durant are natural leaders.

And no one would they argue they are one of the best dynasties ever in sports. Plus Curry is kinda in that Duncan mold where everyone on his teams likes him and he is an incredibly hard worker and he roots for everyone to do well. 

 

13 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

Not including the Jordan Bulls was likely done just because they knew Jordan was an a-hole and completely ruined their entire argument.

I don't think the dude had an argument. He just gathered the best dynasties ever in all sports and found what the similarities were between them. Also in the other sports he mentioned the incredible leader was usually a role player not the star player and mentioned that Cartwright and Pippen were actually the leaders of the Bulls teams. Also the Magic Lakers probably have a better argument and they didn't make the list and Magic would probably qualify for the charismatic connector role.

 

20 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

But to answer your question, no.  He repeatedly threw teammates under the bus, blamed coaches, and there was rumor that teammates actively disliked him- and it's not hard to see why.

This is in reference to IT?

[MookieMonstah]

The teammates disliked him thing was total BS out of Boston beat writers.

Literally all his teammates went on twitter and said that report was complete and total crap.

[JohnChimpo]

3 hours ago, 11sanchez11 said:

 

I don't think the dude had an argument. He just gathered the best dynasties ever in all sports and found what the similarities were between them. Also in the other sports he mentioned the incredible leader was usually a role player not the star player and mentioned that Cartwright and Pippen were actually the leaders of the Bulls teams. Also the Magic Lakers probably have a better argument and they didn't make the list and Magic would probably qualify for the charismatic connector role.

From what I've read, there is some truth to that. Cartwright was the veteran presence who wouldn't let Jordan push him around, and Pippen was a great leader on the court who was well-liked by his teammates.

However, Phil Jackson wrote something to the effect that in order to get the team to buy into something, he had to get Jordan to buy in first because the rest of the team would follow him. Pippen especially followed Jordan. If Jordan took it easy in practice, Pippen took it easy, etc. On the court, everybody except probably Cartwright feared Jordan's wrath when they made mistakes. He was not a fun type of leader, but a leader nonetheless.

[MWil23]

10 hours ago, JohnChimpo said:

From what I've read, there is some truth to that. Cartwright was the veteran presence who wouldn't let Jordan push him around, and Pippen was a great leader on the court who was well-liked by his teammates.

However, Phil Jackson wrote something to the effect that in order to get the team to buy into something, he had to get Jordan to buy in first because the rest of the team would follow him. Pippen especially followed Jordan. If Jordan took it easy in practice, Pippen took it easy, etc. On the court, everybody except probably Cartwright feared Jordan's wrath when they made mistakes. He was not a fun type of leader, but a leader nonetheless.

This is the thesis for Phil's statement:

He started forcing Jordan and Pippen to be on opposing teams in practice so that the intensity would be where he wanted it/needed it to be.

[Pastor Dillon]

19 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

So the ESPN top 100 rankings or whatever they are, have Melo ranked like #64 just ahead of Marcus Smart?

The utter disrespect is disgusting. 

A fun little exercise i like to do, divide the rankings by 30. That means that every guy in the top 90 should in theory be able to be one of the 3 best players on an NBA team if the talent was divided equally. it makes it a little more absurd. 

That means they are saying that if we lined the league up for a draft, Melo would end up being the 3rd player a team would take, which might be correct, but still, there are guys ahead of him I would pass on.