Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Shanedorf]

On 6/12/2020 at 5:27 PM, JTagg7754 said:

Good News Guy here to save you all !!

https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2006/09/19

 

[diehardlionfan]

4 hours ago, rob_shadows said:

Awe so we can't go up there to get the hell away from all this crazy stuff? 

You sure can. All you have to do is tell CBSA is you’re travelling to visit family in Alaska then do what you want. It seems to be working for all the Americans in Banff National Park

[diehardlionfan]

42 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

A friend of mine has been working in the state department trying to get people home to the US, as well as send people back to their home country.  It is nice that the border is open for something other than those official diplomatic channels though. 

I expect, given what we’re seeing here, is the Alaska loophole will be closed. People are simply being dishonest and have no intent of travelling to Alaska.

The rest is good stuff. There are parts of the country where families are in close proximity but had been separated by the closures. Areas where you can literally have conversations across the border. No fence, nothing. So it’s great they an resume some type of contact.

[mission27]

6 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

Canada’s border is open for family reunification as well as those transiting to Alaska. That’s more than sufficient right now.

The economic and social cost is massive tbh. I understand why the border is closed, but this is not going away any time soon in either country or anywhere, and Canada cannot shut itself off from the world forever. There needs to be a middle ground.

[mission27]

The reality is, there isn't that big of a difference between US and Canada from a COVID perspective except the US has significantly more testing of mildly symptomatic as has been the case for some time.  As recently as a few weeks ago nurses in Montreal couldn't get tested without symptoms.  In the US we have excess testing capacity and are literally being forced to shut down testing sites because they aren't needed anymore.  Deaths are a better metric than cases and when you look at that the situation is pretty close.  Canada has ~50 per day, although less than a week ago that number was 70.  The US has 700 a day.  The US has roughly 10x the population and a much less healthy population and so if the situation is comparable on both sides of the border will always have at least 10x as many deaths on average each day, if not more. The major US metros have also done a relatively better job than Montreal and Toronto in controlling the spread and flattening the curve, which isn't talked about enough. 

Most cross border traffic is from places like New York, New England, the Midwest, and Pacific Northwest which have all done an excellent job getting this under control.  A sensible middle ground approach would be to restrict travel for anyone who had been in XYZ states or counties with active outbreaks in the past 14 days and to institute health checks at the border.  Right now, those states would mainly be in the south and southwest.  With the exception of Florida and LA county there are very few people in that part of the country visiting Canada anyway.  What's going on in that part of the country shouldn't prevent someone who lives in a border community 2000 miles away from the hot spots from seeing friends and family.  And no, the current exceptions are not enough.  They do not help you if your loved ones are not immediate family or if you can't afford to take 15+ days off work to go see them.  But currently the political dynamics on both sides of the border are so messed up that nobody is talking about common sense stuff that is being implemented on every other peaceful border in the developed world.  Remember Canada is the country that didn't ban travelers from China or Europe until mid-March, but now wants to keep the border closed to its most important ally and trading partner potentially for years.  Its just politics.  There has to be a better way, informed by good science and a cost benefit. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by mission27

[vikesfan89]

2 hours ago, theJ said:

The wind will obviously blow it around. It's microscopic and doesn't have wings or a jet pack. It doesn't kill it though. 

What exactly are you asking?

Pretty much that.  What happens if you are down wind from someone?

[theJ]

2 hours ago, vikesfan89 said:

Pretty much that.  What happens if you are down wind from someone?

Probably nothing. But not sure there's been any studies to prove that one way or another. 

[vikesfan89]

Either way this wind socks. It'd be nice if it would at least scare the virus off

[naptownskinsfan]

5 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

I expect, given what we’re seeing here, is the Alaska loophole will be closed. People are simply being dishonest and have no intent of travelling to Alaska.

The rest is good stuff. There are parts of the country where families are in close proximity but had been separated by the closures. Areas where you can literally have conversations across the border. No fence, nothing. So it’s great they an resume some type of contact.

It's similar to how everyone in New York and New Jersey and the DMC came down/over to Delaware and forced them to implement stay at home orders.  Lots of summer vacation homes over there and people fled the lockdowns for the freedom in Delaware and just continued living their normal routine.  

[diehardlionfan]

5 hours ago, mission27 said:

The economic and social cost is massive tbh. I understand why the border is closed, but this is not going away any time soon in either country or anywhere, and Canada cannot shut itself off from the world forever. There needs to be a middle ground.

At some point but not yet.

 

 

 

 

[diehardlionfan]

6 hours ago, mission27 said:

The reality is, there isn't that big of a difference between US and Canada from a COVID perspective except the US has significantly more testing of mildly symptomatic as has been the case for some time.  As recently as a few weeks ago nurses in Montreal couldn't get tested without symptoms.  In the US we have excess testing capacity and are literally being forced to shut down testing sites because they aren't needed anymore.  Deaths are a better metric than cases and when you look at that the situation is pretty close.  Canada has ~50 per day, although less than a week ago that number was 70.  The US has 700 a day.  The US has roughly 10x the population and a much less healthy population and so if the situation is comparable on both sides of the border will always have at least 10x as many deaths on average each day, if not more. The major US metros have also done a relatively better job than Montreal and Toronto in controlling the spread and flattening the curve, which isn't talked about enough. 

Most cross border traffic is from places like New York, New England, the Midwest, and Pacific Northwest which have all done an excellent job getting this under control.  A sensible middle ground approach would be to restrict travel for anyone who had been in XYZ states or counties with active outbreaks in the past 14 days and to institute health checks at the border.  Right now, those states would mainly be in the south and southwest.  With the exception of Florida and LA county there are very few people in that part of the country visiting Canada anyway.  What's going on in that part of the country shouldn't prevent someone who lives in a border community 2000 miles away from the hot spots from seeing friends and family.  And no, the current exceptions are not enough.  They do not help you if your loved ones are not immediate family or if you can't afford to take 15+ days off work to go see them.  But currently the political dynamics on both sides of the border are so messed up that nobody is talking about common sense stuff that is being implemented on every other peaceful border in the developed world.  Remember Canada is the country that didn't ban travelers from China or Europe until mid-March, but now wants to keep the border closed to its most important ally and trading partner potentially for years.  Its just politics.  There has to be a better way, informed by good science and a cost benefit. 

I’ve been struggling with how to respond.

1. The U.S. may be an important trading partner but is our least trusted ally. It’s actually questionable if the U.S. is in fact still an ally. Trust has been waning for a number of years and the failed attempt to block 3M from shipping PPE to Canada wont be forgotten anytime soon. It was the straw that made everyone notice. 

2. Every major hot spot for the virus has had issues with testing medical staff. It was localized and dealt with. Our issues on that front were minor compared to issues faced in many of your cities. 

3. Our covid 19 testing isn’t an issue. On a per capital basis we out tested you for the first two months. You’ve certainly ramped up testing but our testing has been reducing due to lack of demand. Our Premier has asked everyone that thinks there’s a remote possibility of being exposed to get tested. Most days we fall well short of capacity.

4. If your metros have done a good job flattening the curve it’s simply because it got so out of hand to begin with.

NY state population 19.4 million with 2,934,000 cases and 32,189 deaths. 
Ontario population 13.6 million with 32,189 cases and 2571 deaths. 
New York City reported 214,627 cases and 21,578 or far more than the entire province of Ontario.

TBH, you can keep your numbers. I think Ontario is doing quite well. We’ve had our 6th straight day with fewer than 15 deaths. ICU patients have fallen to 103 with 77 on ventilators. 

5. You’re entitled to your opinion however Canada’s current border restrictions work for Canadians. It may not be perfect but it’s an option. It’s also applied to Canadians returning home not just foreign nationals.So it’s not discriminatory. 

6. Common sense? LOL.......sorry the political dynamics are messed up in your country. We have our issues but we have a Prime Minister who trusts his experts, believes in science and will react accordingly. His stance on most issues is predictable and dependable.

7. Our government was slow to close the border. I doubt they compound the error by opening to soon. One of the reasons our border remained open to China was the fragility of our relationship. That was brought about because of our relationship with the U.S. To prematurely close the border would’ve resulted in another severe reaction from China. Without any backing from our largest trading partner.

8. By far the busiest crossing is the Windsor Detroit crossings. It accounts for 30%.

9. Exactly how do we trust individuals to say they had been in states XYZ? It’s not like arriving from a foreign country with a passport. What health check? A questionnaire and temperature check. No thanks. We already have a problem with Americans claiming to be headed for Alaska, which is legal, but not their real intention. 

10. Everyone else is opening borders based on risk associated with that country. Numerous countries when Europe enters the next stage on the 21st are still not opening borders. Countries are still banning travel from other countries. With all the misinformation, disinformation, disregard for suggested practices it makes it very difficult to assess risk. Without the ability to assess risk you can’t properly mitigate, so it will take longer.

My family is from Missouri. I have relatives in Missouri, Iowa, Oklahoma, Texas, California, Oregon, Washington North Dakota, Nebraska. My son in law is from San Diego. My best friend lives in Texas. We visit Las Vegas at least twice a year. I have numerous friends in the U.S. by virtue of my past career which saw me travel to the U.S. 10 or more times per year. There is absolutely no way I would support an open border at this point. We don’t need another area of risk when we just entered stage two Friday. Much more of our daily lives have to be resumed and impacts measured before borders open. 

 

[mission27]

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

I’ve been struggling with how to respond.

1. The U.S. may be an important trading partner but is our least trusted ally. It’s actually questionable if the U.S. is in fact still an ally. Trust has been waning for a number of years and the failed attempt to block 3M from shipping PPE to Canada wont be forgotten anytime soon. It was the straw that made everyone notice. 

2. Every major hot spot for the virus has had issues with testing medical staff. It was localized and dealt with. Our issues on that front were minor compared to issues faced in many of your cities. 

3. Our covid 19 testing isn’t an issue. On a per capital basis we out tested you for the first two months. You’ve certainly ramped up testing but our testing has been reducing due to lack of demand. Our Premier has asked everyone that thinks there’s a remote possibility of being exposed to get tested. Most days we fall well short of capacity.

4. If your metros have done a good job flattening the curve it’s simply because it got so out of hand to begin with.

NY state population 19.4 million with 2,934,000 cases and 32,189 deaths. 
Ontario population 13.6 million with 32,189 cases and 2571 deaths. 
New York City reported 214,627 cases and 21,578 or far more than the entire province of Ontario.

TBH, you can keep your numbers. I think Ontario is doing quite well. We’ve had our 6th straight day with fewer than 15 deaths. ICU patients have fallen to 103 with 77 on ventilators. 

5. You’re entitled to your opinion however Canada’s current border restrictions work for Canadians. It may not be perfect but it’s an option. It’s also applied to Canadians returning home not just foreign nationals.So it’s not discriminatory. 

6. Common sense? LOL.......sorry the political dynamics are messed up in your country. We have our issues but we have a Prime Minister who trusts his experts, believes in science and will react accordingly. His stance on most issues is predictable and dependable.

7. Our government was slow to close the border. I doubt they compound the error by opening to soon. One of the reasons our border remained open to China was the fragility of our relationship. That was brought about because of our relationship with the U.S. To prematurely close the border would’ve resulted in another severe reaction from China. Without any backing from our largest trading partner.

8. By far the busiest crossing is the Windsor Detroit crossings. It accounts for 30%.

9. Exactly how do we trust individuals to say they had been in states XYZ? It’s not like arriving from a foreign country with a passport. What health check? A questionnaire and temperature check. No thanks. We already have a problem with Americans claiming to be headed for Alaska, which is legal, but not their real intention. 

10. Everyone else is opening borders based on risk associated with that country. Numerous countries when Europe enters the next stage on the 21st are still not opening borders. Countries are still banning travel from other countries. With all the misinformation, disinformation, disregard for suggested practices it makes it very difficult to assess risk. Without the ability to assess risk you can’t properly mitigate, so it will take longer.

My family is from Missouri. I have relatives in Missouri, Iowa, Oklahoma, Texas, California, Oregon, Washington North Dakota, Nebraska. My son in law is from San Diego. My best friend lives in Texas. We visit Las Vegas at least twice a year. I have numerous friends in the U.S. by virtue of my past career which saw me travel to the U.S. 10 or more times per year. There is absolutely no way I would support an open border at this point. We don’t need another area of risk when we just entered stage two Friday. Much more of our daily lives have to be resumed and impacts measured before borders open. 

 

Completely respect your opinion but I think its a mistake for Canada to believe the US is less than its most important ally and trading partner simply because of who the president is tbh.  We share a 2K mile border and more cross border communities and more trade than any two countries on earth.  North America north of the Rio Grande is basically one entity.  Two sovereign nations but I honestly don't think there is any meaningful cultural or economic difference between Canada and the US, as someone who crosses that border many dozens of times a year.  

I spend about 50-100 days a year in Canada, its a second home to me, I have family and loved ones and countless friends in Canada. I've looked at buying property and getting citizenship. Nothing but respect for your country. But the reality is the US is a much more important trading partner and ally to Canada than the other way around. Thats not an opinion its just relative size of our economies.  I do a ton of business in Canada, many of the companies I work with are hurting right now because of the border closure.  US companies honestly aren't feeling the same pain.  Canada represents 14% of our trade, the US represents more than half of Canada's.  Canada is a sovereign nation and entitled to do what they believe is right on their border I just think the consensus public opinion in Canada on this issue is warped and too heavily influenced by blowback against Trudeau for being one of the last leaders to shut down the borders, just as public opinion in the US is warped on so many issues related to the virus.  There has to be a better way than ruining people's lives and businesses for months or years. 

[mission27]

3 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

At some point but not yet.

Ok, but when?  Based on the standard the Canadians public and politicians seem to be applying that border wont be open until there is a vaccine which may never exist. Canada cannot diplomatically afford to open up travel with countries other than the US before opening up the US border.  So either Canada needs to find a way to open up the border, accepting some degree of increased risk, or Canada and Canadians will be cut off physically from the rest of the world indefinitely until a vaccine shows up that there is no guarantees will ever exist.  I don't get what the gameplan is here.  At this point, there needs to be some messaging about when and how and under what conditions that border will open.

[mission27]

mission will post the MoLs in the morning

[rob_shadows]

3 hours ago, mission27 said:

mission will post the MoLs in the morning

Translation: mission drank too much tonight and can't handle looking at a bunch of numbers right now.

Edited June 15, 2020 by rob_shadows