2020 Minnesota Vikings Draft Class

[Purplepride323]

28 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Johnson (26 this summer) is 3 years younger than Stephen, who’s 29 this year.

Johnson isn’t good. Stephen isn’t good either, but he’s better at what Zimmer wants from the position.

$8M for a year of Sheldon Richardson was taking advantage of a bargain, not making a major investment. If they wanted, they could’ve cut Joseph and kept him instead (Browns paid him the same $12M AAV Joseph was making), but they didn’t, because of all the reasons I’ve already explained.

If it makes you feel better to think of Pierce/Stephen as “two NTs in the middle of your defense”, go ahead. It’s not far wrong, the Vikings DTs shift gap alignments fairly often, so the NT sometimes lines up in the B gap and the 3T in the A gap, the opposite of what you’d expect.

If you want to say it doesn’t work well — again, you’re entitled to your opinion, but the Vikings have had maybe the best defense in the NFL over the past 5 years, since Zimmer started to get them up to speed.

I think if you put aside your expectations of how a defense should ideally be built, and watch what the team actually does on the field, and how they handle personnel decisions, you’ll see they do have a plan. And based on Zimmer’s long track record, I wouldn’t bet against his approach again producing a strong defense this year. 

Our run defense 2 years ago was the 2nd best. This last year we were 17th. I don’t get why it’s hard to understand, Stephen should not be starting. And before you even say Linval was the problem, he wasn’t. If anything, he had a down year because teams were doubling him more, knowing that Stephen wasn’t going to do much to disrupt the o-line.  

Edited April 26, 2020 by Purplepride323

[Purplepride323]

3 minutes ago, RpMc said:

There’s been no reporting, it’s been pure speculation base off of the addition of Don Capers as an advisor. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailynorseman.com/platform/amp/2020/4/9/21198301/vikings-going-back-to-the-future-on-defense

Just puts 2 and 2 together. Our defense has been similar to the Seahawks defense. Whether y’all see it or not. Not saying it’s the same, but it’s similar. Meaning we’ve been playing 4-3 with cover safeties and a lot of nickel just like they have. The small nuances are different but that’s with every team. 

[RpMc]

14 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailynorseman.com/platform/amp/2020/4/9/21198301/vikings-going-back-to-the-future-on-defense

Just puts 2 and 2 together. Our defense has been similar to the Seahawks defense. Whether y’all see it or not. Not saying it’s the same, but it’s similar. Meaning we’ve been playing 4-3 with cover safeties and a lot of nickel just like they have. The small nuances are different but that’s with every team. 

The Seahawks were in base personnel 67% of the time last year. That is not “a lot of nickel”

Not all 4-3 schemes are the same, and if you’re going to base out of an over or under front your personnel is different.  This is what @Krauser was trying to get across with why our 3Ts have been more run stuffers in recent history - because they’re to the strength of the offensive formation. Again, our over front base has more in common with some odd front teams than the Seahawks of a year ago. 

You’re simply just wrong on this, and nothing in that piece spoke to how the Vikings/Seahawks defenses were similar; it only mentioned the Seahawks as they’re the most “famous” recent example of an under front defense.

———

now, even as the draft was unfolding, I made comments about how a lot of the defensive pieces we were drafting fit well within multiple schemes, Michael Pierce fits well within multiple schemes, but to say for certain that we are switching to a base under front, instead of keeping Zimmer’s base over front and mixing in more under/odd wrinkles (which the Vikings also did last year - we came out odd during the first series of the Falcons game), based on a speculative article from a blog site with zero inside knowledge of the team is absurd. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by RpMc

[Krauser]

5 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Our run defense 2 years ago was the 2nd best. This last year we were 17th.

Based on what, total rushing yards? That’s a terrible way to measure run defense, since it depends mostly on attempts, which depend on game script (leading or trailing at whatever point in the game).

DVOA is better to look at results. Vikings were 8th in run defense DVOA. In 2018 (with Sheldon Richardson at 3T), they were 11th. In 2017 (Tom Johnson, with Stephen playing rotationally), 6th. So not exactly a huge dropoff with Stephen in there.

12 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

And before you even say Linval was the problem, he wasn’t. If anything, he had a down year because teams were doubling him more, knowing that Stephen wasn’t going to do much to penetrate the gap. 

No, that’s not what happened. 

4 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Our defense has been similar to the Seahawks defense. Whether y’all see it or not

No, it hasn’t.

The Seahawks scheme is cover 3 behind a base 4-3, which they stay in pretty much all game regardless of opponent’s personnel. The Vikings play all kinds of zone schemes, mostly in nickel with split safeties (having 2 safeties back and only 2 LBs on the field makes coverage better but keeps the box light, which is why they like a heavy IDL, which is what started this discussion in the first place).

Maybe they’ll change as Ludford is speculating in the DN article, but that’s just speculation, he’s not reporting anything. I write for the DN too, so I could post a “Vikings won’t change Zimmer’s scheme” article there and you’d have just as much “reporting” for the other side of the argument.

If you read the article carefully, you’ll see that Warren’s claim for the shift to an under front would require them to invest in a starting 3-tech. I like the Lynch pick, but it’s fair to say that a 4th rounder is not that kind of investment. If they were really going to make this change, they would have a huge hole in their roster and presumably would’ve made a point of landing a 3-tech, at least before taking a CB to compete with Holton Hill for a depth/rotational role

Also, his point about Stephen being better suited for a 5-tech role is basically what I’m saying too, it’s just that Stephen lines up in the B gap and then plays that style of controlling the LOS without trying to penetrate. I’m not a DL coach, but I think that has more to do with gap responsibilities / run fits from the 2nd level than anything else. 

[Purplepride323]

5 minutes ago, RpMc said:

The Seahawks were in base personnel 67% of the time last year. That is not “a lot of nickel”

Not all 4-3 schemes are the same, and if you’re going to base out of an over or under front your personnel is different.  This is what @Krauser was trying to get across with why our 3Ts have been more run stuffers in recent history - because they’re to the strength of the offensive formation. Again, our over front base has more in common with some odd front teams than the Seahawks of a year ago. 

You’re simply just wrong on this, and nothing in that piece spoke to how the Vikings/Seahawks defenses were similar; it only mentioned the Seahawks as they’re the most “famous” recent example of an under front defense.

———

now, even as the draft was unfolding, I made comments about how a lot of the defensive pieces we were drafting fit well within multiple schemes, Michael Pierce fits well within multiple schemes, but to say for certain that we are switching to a base under front, instead of keeping Zimmer’s base over front and mixing in more under/odd wrinkles (which the Vikings also did last year - we came out odd during the first series of the Falcons game), based on a speculative article from a blog site with zero inside knowledge of the team is absurd. 

Our 3T’s have been more run stuffers? Like I said we had the 17th ranked run defense last year. I don’t think that’s run stuffing. That’s the worst we’ve had since Zimmer took over. My whole point of this is that Stephen shouldn’t be starting.
 

As for the Seahawks comparison. We added Capers as the defensive coordinator who was recently the coordinator for the Jaguars. Guess which defense they were running. The Seahawks under front. Again I’m not saying we’ll have the exact same scheme. But it will be similar. The Seahawks during the legion of boom were known for having big corners and big safeties with Chancellor and Sherman leading the way. Our secondary has always focused on big players with cover safeties during the Zimmer era. Again not saying they’re schematically the same, but they’re similar. Now I think they’ll be even more similar this coming year. Which I’m not mad at. We got the right personnel to do it. We just gotta get rid of Stephen. 

[RpMc]

^^ Capers is not the defensive coordinator. Adam Zimmer and Andre Patterson are. Dom Capers wasn’t even hired as a position coach - he was hired as a senior defensive assistant. 

[Krauser]

3 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Like I said we had the 17th ranked run defense last year.

Again, “ranked” how?

If you’re using total rushing yards allowed, I’ll wrap this up here.

[RpMc]

https://www.vikings.com/news/vikings-role-based-on-how-dom-capers-can-contribute-the-most

Mike Zimmer said during a conference call Tuesday morning that Capers has "always had really good ideas in the pressure game defensively."

"I just wanted another idea-guy, really, someone to come in and have a better way of doing things than we've done it in the past … or at least someone able to say, 'Have you thought about doing it this way or that way?' Then we all sit in a room and figure out how we want to do things," Zimmer added. "I just think with the experience he has and the number of things he's done in his career — basically doing a lot of the same things in Jacksonville [last season] that he'll be doing here."

Zimmer said Capers' role will be "similar" to the role that Kubiak held in 2019.

"Gary probably had a little more [influence] on terminology and things like that," Zimmer said. "We won't change defensive terminology. His role will me more of, like I said before, kind of an overseer … an idea person … 'Maybe the corners should play this way, or maybe we should play the defensive line a little differently?' Just things like that, really.

"We've been running this defense for a long, long, long time, and I just thought it would good to get some new, fresh ideas," Zimmer added

Doesn’t sound like a wholesale scheme change to me.  Just a fresh pair of eyes, who’s particularly excelled in pressure packages, to give Zimmer a fresh view on things. He will have less say than Kubiak had, now has, on the offensive side of the ball. 

[whitehops]

sorry for going off topic all this talk of seattle and light boxes makes me really hope zimmer has an answer for seattle playing 6 OL most of the game and running at will against our nickel defense.

[Purplepride323]

16 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Based on what, total rushing yards? That’s a terrible way to measure run defense, since it depends mostly on attempts, which depend on game script (leading or trailing at whatever point in the game).

DVOA is better to look at results. Vikings were 8th in run defense DVOA. In 2018 (with Sheldon Richardson at 3T), they were 11th. In 2017 (Tom Johnson, with Stephen playing rotationally), 6th. So not exactly a huge dropoff with Stephen in there.

No, that’s not what happened. 

No, it hasn’t.

The Seahawks scheme is cover 3 behind a base 4-3, which they stay in pretty much all game regardless of opponent’s personnel. The Vikings play all kinds of zone schemes, mostly in nickel with split safeties (having 2 safeties back and only 2 LBs on the field makes coverage better but keeps the box light, which is why they like a heavy IDL, which is what started this discussion in the first place).

Maybe they’ll change as Ludford is speculating in the DN article, but that’s just speculation, he’s not reporting anything. I write for the DN too, so I could post a “Vikings won’t change Zimmer’s scheme” article there and you’d have just as much “reporting” for the other side of the argument.

If you read the article carefully, you’ll see that Warren’s claim for the shift to an under front would require them to invest in a starting 3-tech. I like the Lynch pick, but it’s fair to say that a 4th rounder is not that kind of investment. If they were really going to make this change, they would have a huge hole in their roster and presumably would’ve made a point of landing a 3-tech, at least before taking a CB to compete with Holton Hill for a depth/rotational role

Also, his point about Stephen being better suited for a 5-tech role is basically what I’m saying too, it’s just that Stephen lines up in the B gap and then plays that style of controlling the LOS without trying to penetrate. I’m not a DL coach, but I think that has more to do with gap responsibilities / run fits from the 2nd level than anything else. 

Yeah the game plan was run the ball, that’s every teams game plan. We allowed the most rushing yards per game in recent years and you don’t think that’s a problem? We were 24th in plays allowed because our defense just wasn’t stopping 3rd down plays. Now coverage was a big reason for that but I think the run defense wasn’t great either. If anything, it was good because we had Kendricks and Linval. Not because we had a 3Tech that was a Nose tackle. Our run defense was the best during the Williams Wall years. Kevin Williams wasn’t a NT. He was really a DE. Now I know that was a different scheme but just goes to show, you don’t need two NTs to stop the run. 

[Purplepride323]

32 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Again, “ranked” how?

If you’re using total rushing yards allowed, I’ll wrap this up here.

17th in rush yards per game. 19th in rush yards per attempt. That’s bad.
 

Yeah we were 16th in rush attempts per game but that doesn’t exactly mean that teams game- planned to run the ball more against us. If anything teams game- planned to throw against us since our pass defense was the weaker link. I don’t know what you saw last year, but our run defense needs to be better. Moester burned us in that play off game and he’s not exactly an elite rusher. 
 

Either way you wanna put it, you can’t tell me Shamar Stephen should be the starting DT on this team or any team. He’s not the guy. He’s a back- up NT, not a starting 3Tech.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Purplepride323

[Krauser]

Rushing yards per game says as much about whether a team spends a lot of time leading or trailing as it does about the quality of their run defense.

The Vikings defense’s problem last year was pass coverage, especially from the corners, especially on 3rd downs. Their run defense wasn’t great but it was OK.

Obviously they could stand to upgrade from Stephen. But just as obviously, they aren’t trying hard to replace him. That makes sense to me, based on Zimmer’s scheme.

I’ll leave it there. We’ll see how it shakes out this year.

[Purplepride323]

25 minutes ago, whitehops said:

sorry for going off topic all this talk of seattle and light boxes makes me really hope zimmer has an answer for seattle playing 6 OL most of the game and running at will against our nickel defense.

It has to be the under front defensive line with 8 guys in the box. I think this is why we brought in Dom Capers. He did a lot of that with the Jaguars last year. 

[PrplChilPill]

So, they picked a guy in round 2 they don't expect to start? I'm not sure I get this......but then, I've never understood their approach to the OL.....

Seems like a good draft, though I didn't pay attn to the players at all this year. But, I like the positions (though I would have preferred DL in round 1, not WR). 

[Purplepride323]

5 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Rushing yards per game says as much about whether a team spends a lot of time leading or trailing as it does about the quality of their run defense.

The Vikings defense’s problem last year was pass coverage, especially from the corners, especially on 3rd downs. Their run defense wasn’t great but it was OK.

Obviously they could stand to upgrade from Stephen. But just as obviously, they aren’t trying hard to replace him. That makes sense to me, based on Zimmer’s scheme.

I’ll leave it there. We’ll see how it shakes out this year.

It just shows that it’s not as important as addressing corners. Zimmer has always focused on corners more than any other position on defense. It’s just his philosophy and it works for him. He’s been doing it since the Deion Sanders days with the Cowboys. I’m not saying he should change that. Prioritizing corners over 3Techs are fine, but Shamar Stephen is a liability in both the pass and run game. He shouldn’t be a starter. That’s all I’m saying. I think Watts or Lynch will win that starting job. I know you said Watts is a NT but so is Stephen. It’s just Watts is much better at pressuring the QB, which we need this year, especially with young corners. We can’t allow time for QBs to pick on these young guys.