2020 Minnesota Vikings Draft Class

[battle2heaven]

Just now, Dolmonite26 said:

It's not moot to the conversation of how the team manages it's resources and scheme toward the position. Lynch was a 4th round pick, they might really like him but they still didn't like him that much

More of a tongue in cheek comment from myself. 

[Dolmonite26]

3 minutes ago, battle2heaven said:

More of a tongue in cheek comment from myself. 

There's no room for kidding in matters as important as this

[Illadelegend215]

I was legit pissed off when we picked Jefferson first because I just KNEW we would miss out on Cleveland, who I felt was perfect for us. We addressed our fledgling secondary as well, have extra money due to not trading for Trent Williams. My one issue with Jefferson is his ability to play outside receiver. Thielen thrives in the slot, he can play outside but he isn’t as deadly. Can Jefferson become an above average outside receiver?

[Purplepride323]

8 hours ago, Krauser said:

I think Lynch actually has a decent chance of playing as a more complete 3T — on early downs as well as 3rd down pass rushing — at least well enough that they can use him rotationally with Stephen and move on from Jaleel Johnson (who hasn’t been good). Lynch played all over the line for Baylor, including inside and head-up over tackles in a 3-4 front. His highlights show he’s not just a gap shooter but someone who can win a fight with his hands.  Hopefully that will translate to the NFL.

 

I don’t know what defense doesn’t want a pass rush from at least one of their DTs on early passing plays. Why do you think we signed Sheldon Richardson? Or why do you think we drafted Sharrif Floyd in the first round during the Zimmer era? You need a pass rush up the middle to at least collapse the pocket or else the QB can step into his throws and beat you every time. Your idea makes no sense and it is definitely not what Zimmer wants. Also Jaleel Johnson was much better than Stephen last year and he’s 4 years younger. It seems like a no brainer. Stephen has to go. Even if it only saves 1.5 million. We can use those reps for Watts, Lynch and Mata’afa who are much better at disrupting the pocket. Our pass defense was the worst it’s been last year under the Zimmer era. How much of that do you think is because of the lack of pressure? I think it has a lot to do with it. You just can’t give guys like Rodgers and Stafford time to read the defense and step into their throws. 

[Krauser]

16 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

I don’t know what defense doesn’t want a pass rush from at least one of their DTs on early passing plays.

Having a pass rush is good, sure. The point is that Zimmer doesn't want the DL trying to shoot gaps on early downs in order to generate that rush. They play in their lanes and try to hold the LOS. 

18 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Why do you think we signed Sheldon Richardson?

They signed him for $8M/1. Why do you think they didn't try to retain Richardson after 2018, or offer him a long-term deal in the first place? 

19 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Or why do you think we drafted Sharrif Floyd in the first round during the Zimmer era?

Floyd was drafted in 2013, before Zimmer took over.

My point is that they haven't been willing to spend more than a 4th round pick to replace him in the 4 years since. They've invested more to replace other high level starters lost to injury, free agency, etc. 

20 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Also Jaleel Johnson was much better than Stephen last year and he’s 4 years younger.

Johnson is younger, and made a few plays, but he was worse than Stephen last year. PFF graded him at 50.9, the 111th ranked DT/DL of 117 who played at least 20% of snaps. Johnson has graded in the 50s (below replacement level) the last 2 seasons, and the last 2 preseasons as well. He's 26 this year and isn't good.

Stephen isn't great or anything but he's been a consistently average player under Zimmer, grading around 60 every year (61.2 last year). They do need to upgrade him. 

28 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Watts, Lynch and Mata’afa who are much better at disrupting the pocket

I was a big fan of Mata'afa the last couple of years, but he only put up 4 pressures (all hurries, no hits or sacks) on 90 pass rush snaps, which were almost all on 3rd downs. That's terrible production given that (unlike Stephen on early downs) he was being asked to pin his ears back and get to the QB.

Watts is a NT. 

Lynch will hopefully be better but we don't know until we see him play against an NFL OL. 

32 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Our pass defense was the worst it’s been last year under the Zimmer era. How much of that do you think is because of the lack of pressure?

A little, but not much. The big problem was the CB play. 

As a team, the Vikings put up 304 pressures last year. I'm not going to do the math to normalize that to pass attempts, but it compares well with a number of other good teams with run first offenses (which shorten the game and limit the number of pass attempts the defense faces, thus limiting the number of potential pressures their defense can put up): GB 304, SF 311, DAL 302, BAL 307, LARM 322, SEA 244.

As I said before, I'm sure Zimmer would love to have an elite 3-tech who disrupts the pocket while controlling the LOS in the ground game. He isn't crazy. 

But it's worth noting that he seems willing to play Stephen on early downs despite the lack of pass rush. I think that's because he puts the priority on the DL limiting the damage in the run game, so he can keep a guy back in coverage. 

[Purplepride323]

51 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Having a pass rush is good, sure. The point is that Zimmer doesn't want the DL trying to shoot gaps on early downs in order to generate that rush. They play in their lanes and try to hold the LOS. 
 

 

They signed him for $8M/1. Why do you think they didn't try to retain Richardson after 2018, or offer him a long-term deal in the first place? 

Floyd was drafted in 2013, before Zimmer took over.

My point is that they haven't been willing to spend more than a 4th round pick to replace him in the 4 years since. They've invested more to replace other high level starters lost to injury, free agency, etc. 

Johnson is younger, and made a few plays, but he was worse than Stephen last year. PFF graded him at 50.9, the 111th ranked DT/DL of 117 who played at least 20% of snaps. Johnson has graded in the 50s (below replacement level) the last 2 seasons, and the last 2 preseasons as well. He's 26 this year and isn't good.

Stephen isn't great or anything but he's been a consistently average player under Zimmer, grading around 60 every year (61.2 last year). They do need to upgrade him. 

I was a big fan of Mata'afa the last couple of years, but he only put up 4 pressures (all hurries, no hits or sacks) on 90 pass rush snaps, which were almost all on 3rd downs. That's terrible production given that (unlike Stephen on early downs) he was being asked to pin his ears back and get to the QB.

Watts is a NT. 

Lynch will hopefully be better but we don't know until we see him play against an NFL OL. 

A little, but not much. The big problem was the CB play. 

As a team, the Vikings put up 304 pressures last year. I'm not going to do the math to normalize that to pass attempts, but it compares well with a number of other good teams with run first offenses (which shorten the game and limit the number of pass attempts the defense faces, thus limiting the number of potential pressures their defense can put up): GB 304, SF 311, DAL 302, BAL 307, LARM 322, SEA 244.

As I said before, I'm sure Zimmer would love to have an elite 3-tech who disrupts the pocket while controlling the LOS in the ground game. He isn't crazy. 

But it's worth noting that he seems willing to play Stephen on early downs despite the lack of pass rush. I think that's because he puts the priority on the DL limiting the damage in the run game, so he can keep a guy back in coverage. 

They didn’t re-sign Richardson because he got a monster contract from the Browns. We were smart for not overpaying him on a long-term deal. Why would we sign him in the first place if we didn’t need a disruptive/ pass- rushing 3Tech in the Zimmer defense? Ask yourself that. 

I don’t get why you don’t process the fact that Shamar Stephen was horrible last year in a starting role. He’s never had more than 10 pressures in a season for his whole career. PFF also had Weatherly graded poorly, I think he played solid last year, thus why he got a big contract. Those grades aren’t accurate for back- ups because they play limited snaps.

Having a guy like Pierce, who doesn’t get after the QB and specializes in run-stopping and controlling the gaps. Why would we have another starting DT next to him doing the same thing? Do you know how much time the QBs will have against Pierce & Stephen? They would never even have to run, they would just throw the ball every time when those two are in the middle. **** I can even play QB against those two and step into my throws and deliver the ball perfectly. My point isn’t that Johnson is better than Stephen at stopping the run. He’s better at disrupting the pocket. Which is key, especially in our division, going against elite QBs. We got Pierce to stop the run in the middle, we don’t need Stephen to stop the run. We need him to get through the LOS and he’s not good at that.

Also you said Watts is a NT but he played 3Tech a lot on passing downs. So I think they see him as a 3Tech more so than a NT. He’s better at rushing the passer than stopping the run. Our NT can be Pierce, with Johnson backing him up, as he’s younger, cheaper and more effective on 3rd downs than Stephen. Then at 3Tech we can have Watts start and Lynch back him up. I think this would be ideal for us.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Purplepride323

[Krauser]

Just now, Purplepride323 said:

I don’t get why you don’t process the fact that Shamar Stephen was horrible last year in a starting role. He’s never had more than 10 pressures in a season for his whole career.

Stephen wasn't horrible. He wasn't good either. He was average, or maybe mediocre is a better word. 

He isn't a good pass rusher, but then Zimmer doesn't put a priority on his DTs rushing the passer on early downs. 

You should complain to Zimmer, not me. I'm just explaining what they're doing. 

2 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

PFF also had Weatherly graded poorly, I think he played solid last year, thus why get got a big contract.

Weatherly wasn't good last year. He was better in 2018, and he still has potential, which is why I think he got the contract.

I think his PFF grades are fair. He doesn't beat blocks often enough and doesn't play with much power. He is good in space, and he's athletic enough to make plays. He reminds me of Barr that way, and Wonnum looks to be another similar type. 

4 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Those grades aren’t accurate for back- ups because they play limited snaps.

Um, no.

5 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Having a guy like Pierce, who doesn’t get after the QB and specializes in run-stopping and controlling the gaps. Why would we have another starting DT next to him doing the same thing?

Like I already explained, so they can play lighter boxes on early downs and still hold up against the run. 

Why do you think Zimmer speaks highly of Stephen, wanted him back last year and kept him on the roster this year? Do you think you understand the Vikings defense better than Zimmer?

7 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

He’s better at disrupting the pocket. Which is key, especially in our division, going against elite QBs.

Interior pressure is actually less important than edge pressure, which is less important than coverage.

Having a stout but not penetrating DL can help with coverage, as I've been explaining. And playing with light boxes can induce teams to run, which helps the Vikings get to 3rd down, where they typically excel (as long as the corners are good). 

10 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Also you said Watts is a NT but he played 3Tech a lot on passing downs.

No he didn't. He played NT rotationally to backup Joseph. He played NT in the week 17 game that Joseph sat out and he played NT late in the Chargers blowout when the starters were pulled.

Weeks 15 & 17 aside, Watts only played 57 snaps all year: 20 pass rush snaps and 37 run defense snaps. That's not the usage of a nickel pass rusher. Almost all of his work was on early downs.

16 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

Our NT can be Pierce, with Johnson backing him up, as he’s younger, cheaper and more effective than Stephen. Then at 3Tech we can have Watts start and Lynch back him up. I think this would be ideal for us.

I mean, I can't argue with what you think. It's your opinion.

Zimmer did have Stephen ahead of Jaleel on the depth chart all last year. There's no reason to expect his opinion will have changed. I can't imagine they'd release Stephen to make Johnson the starter.

Johnson played both DT positions rotationally, but more often at 3T once Watts started dressing later in the year. He's a better pass rusher than a run defender. 

Watts played NT last year. I agree they could use him as a backup for both positions, like Johnson was last year. This would only work if they trust Lynch to play on early downs, so they have depth if either one of the starters gets hurt. 

I predict Pierce and Stephen will start. If Lynch shows well in preseason, they can make him the DT4,  release Johnson and make Watts the DT3. Maybe they keep a 5th as a pass rusher: Zettel, Mata'afa or Holmes.

 

[SemperFeist]

The new people at VEN have been killing it this year. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by SemperFeist

[Purplepride323]

1 hour ago, Krauser said:

Stephen wasn't horrible. He wasn't good either. He was average, or maybe mediocre is a better word. 

He isn't a good pass rusher, but then Zimmer doesn't put a priority on his DTs rushing the passer on early downs. 

You should complain to Zimmer, not me. I'm just explaining what they're doing. 

Weatherly wasn't good last year. He was better in 2018, and he still has potential, which is why I think he got the contract.

I think his PFF grades are fair. He doesn't beat blocks often enough and doesn't play with much power. He is good in space, and he's athletic enough to make plays. He reminds me of Barr that way, and Wonnum looks to be another similar type. 

Um, no.

Like I already explained, so they can play lighter boxes on early downs and still hold up against the run. 

Why do you think Zimmer speaks highly of Stephen, wanted him back last year and kept him on the roster this year? Do you think you understand the Vikings defense better than Zimmer?

Interior pressure is actually less important than edge pressure, which is less important than coverage.

Having a stout but not penetrating DL can help with coverage, as I've been explaining. And playing with light boxes can induce teams to run, which helps the Vikings get to 3rd down, where they typically excel (as long as the corners are good). 

No he didn't. He played NT rotationally to backup Joseph. He played NT in the week 17 game that Joseph sat out and he played NT late in the Chargers blowout when the starters were pulled.

Weeks 15 & 17 aside, Watts only played 57 snaps all year: 20 pass rush snaps and 37 run defense snaps. That's not the usage of a nickel pass rusher. Almost all of his work was on early downs.

I mean, I can't argue with what you think. It's your opinion.

Zimmer did have Stephen ahead of Jaleel on the depth chart all last year. There's no reason to expect his opinion will have changed. I can't imagine they'd release Stephen to make Johnson the starter.

Johnson played both DT positions rotationally, but more often at 3T once Watts started dressing later in the year. He's a better pass rusher than a run defender. 

Watts played NT last year. I agree they could use him as a backup for both positions, like Johnson was last year. This would only work if they trust Lynch to play on early downs, so they have depth if either one of the starters gets hurt. 

I predict Pierce and Stephen will start. If Lynch shows well in preseason, they can make him the DT4,  release Johnson and make Watts the DT3. Maybe they keep a 5th as a pass rusher: Zettel, Mata'afa or Holmes.

 

I would much rather keep Jaleel Johnson, again who is 4 years younger than Stephen, still on his rookie contract, and not even in his prime yet. Stephen is past his prime and I don’t think he’s a good fit next to Pierce. Like I said, if a penetrating 3Tech wasn’t a need in this defense, why would we sign Richardson to an 8 million dollar deal? It’s obvious it is a needed asset, and maybe we thought Stephen can be that guy but he simply isn’t. Stephen and Pierce are too ineffective as pass rushers and I don’t see them starting together. Even if we keep Stephen as a back-up behind Pierce, it wouldn’t make sense because of his age, and inability to pass rush. 
 

The defense that resembles ours the most in the league is the Seahawks defense. Their 3Tech Jarran Reed had 50 QB pressures in one season during the 2018 campaign. The same year that Stephen was there and they were playing him at NT. Which is his best fit imo. Having him at 3Tech is like having two NTs in the middle of your defense. I don’t think that works well. I think the main thing about 3Techs in this system is penetrating the line and pressuring the QB, more so than getting sacks. You simply don’t want the QB to be comfortable, so he doesn’t step into his throws and he’s more susceptible to leaving the pocket which makes it easier for the other guys to get him.
 

Watts is known for being versatile and playing almost anywhere on the line. With that said, I think his best fit is at the 3Tech position because of his ability to pressure the QB. I think you get my point, Stephen is not worth starting over Watts or Lynch even in his rookie year. Especially next to a true NT like Pierce. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Purplepride323

[RpMc]

Our defense has been nothing like the Seahawks...

They are a base under front which means that their 3T spends most of their time AWAY from the offensive running strength. We spend most of our time in an over front with our 3T TO the running strength. 
 

the Seahawks are a base 1 high team that runs multiple cover-3 schemes - we are much more multiple in our coverage and rely on pattern matching after the distribution of routes happens. 
 

the Seahawks spend 2/3s of the game in base personnel, we spend 2/3s of the game in nickel personnel. 
 

we have more in common with some odd front teams than we do the Seahawks. 

[Purplepride323]

26 minutes ago, RpMc said:

Our defense has been nothing like the Seahawks...

They are a base under front which means that their 3T spends most of their time AWAY from the offensive running strength. We spend most of our time in an over front with our 3T TO the running strength. 
 

the Seahawks are a base 1 high team that runs multiple cover-3 schemes - we are much more multiple in our coverage and rely on pattern matching after the distribution of routes happens. 
 

the Seahawks spend 2/3s of the game in base personnel, we spend 2/3s of the game in nickel personnel. 
 

we have more in common with some odd front teams than we do the Seahawks. 

We’ll be running the under front this year. Also more of the cover 3. Which is similar to what the Seahawks do. At least this is what has been reported. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Purplepride323

[Dolmonite26]

Lol I was gonna say, the Seahawks are a terrible comp and Carroll is very different as a coach then Zim. Even if both are proponents of Run first and play great defense

[Krauser]

31 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

I would much rather keep Jaleel Johnson, again who is 4 years younger than Stephen, still on his rookie contract, and not even in his prime yet. Stephen is past his prime and I don’t think he’s a good fit next to Pierce. Like I said, if a penetrating 3Tech wasn’t a need in this defense, why would we sign Richardson to an 8 million dollar deal? It’s obvious it is a needed asset, and maybe we thought Stephen can be that guy but he simply isn’t. Stephen and Pierce are too ineffective as pass rushers and I don’t see them starting together. Even if we keep Stephen as a back-up behind Pierce, it wouldn’t make sense because of his age, and inability to pass rush. 
 

The defense that resembles ours the most in the league is the Seahawks defense. Their 3Tech Jarran Reed had 50 QB pressures in one season during the 2018 campaign. The same year that Stephen was there and they were playing him at NT. Which is his best fit imo. Having him at 3Tech is like having two NTs in the middle of your defense. I don’t think that works well. I think the main thing about 3Techs in this system is penetrating the line and pressuring the QB, more so than getting sacks. You simply don’t want the QB to be comfortable, so he doesn’t step into his throws and he’s more susceptible to leaving the pocket which makes it easier for the other guys to get him.
 

Watts is known for being versatile and playing almost anywhere on the line. With that said, I think his best fit is at the 3Tech position because of his ability to pressure the QB. I think you get my point, Stephen is not worth starting over Watts or Lynch even in his rookie year. Especially next to a true NT like Pierce. 

Johnson (26 this summer) is 3 years younger than Stephen, who’s 29 this year.

Johnson isn’t good. Stephen isn’t good either, but he’s better at what Zimmer wants from the position.

$8M for a year of Sheldon Richardson was taking advantage of a bargain, not making a major investment. If they wanted, they could’ve cut Joseph and kept him instead (Browns paid him the same $12M AAV Joseph was making), but they didn’t, because of all the reasons I’ve already explained.

If it makes you feel better to think of Pierce/Stephen as “two NTs in the middle of your defense”, go ahead. It’s not far wrong, the Vikings DTs shift gap alignments fairly often, so the NT sometimes lines up in the B gap and the 3T in the A gap, the opposite of what you’d expect.

If you want to say it doesn’t work well — again, you’re entitled to your opinion, but the Vikings have had maybe the best defense in the NFL over the past 5 years, since Zimmer started to get them up to speed.

I think if you put aside your expectations of how a defense should ideally be built, and watch what the team actually does on the field, and how they handle personnel decisions, you’ll see they do have a plan. And based on Zimmer’s long track record, I wouldn’t bet against his approach again producing a strong defense this year. 

[babababa]

I thought this was a pretty good draft. The needs were covered well outside of DE in my opinion. I'm not saying that those guys can't develop, but I feel like there isn't a solid rotation right now. We'd better hope Hunter doesn't get injured at any point this season. 

[RpMc]

29 minutes ago, Purplepride323 said:

We’ll be running the under front this year. Also more of the cover 3. Which is similar to what the Seahawks do. At least this is what has been reported. 

There’s been no reporting, it’s been pure speculation base off of the addition of Dom Capers as an advisor. 
 

no matter who is brought in as an advisor, the structure of Zimmer’s defense is very likely to remain the same as it is his team. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by RpMc