The Raider Depreciation Thread 📉

[MrOaktown_56]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Everything really comes down to the fact they went all in on Derek Carr. And Derek Carr let them down. 

That was the catalyst in all of this. You can like a player outside looking in, but different when you get them on the grass. 

They went all in thinking they had the QB and Carr was a let down. It sucks, but that is the reality. Devante, Hunter, Waller were all decisions resulting from the belief they had the QB in place.

You could tell early on last season they knew they made a mistake. They took the ball out of Carr's hands and started running the offense through Jacobs. He became the focal point of the offense that made it go, not the QB they bought in to. 

The rest is history... Carr was mediocre. They thought they could get Tom Brady made rash decisions as a result. And now the regime is unraveling around their QB decision. 

There are other components, mainly the defense. But it all starts and ends with do you have the guy at QB. They didn't, still don't and will like lose jobs over it in the end. 

How can you go all in on a guy and then not tailor the offense to them? The lack of shotgun and play action were glaring last year. The coach deserves a ton of blame as well for that dysfunction.

Carr didn't have his best year and the Raiders were still an above-average offense. He will cook in the Saints shotgun offense, especially once Kamara is back. Especially if they can sort out their horror show at tackle. I'm just calling it like I see it.

What's worse, we obviously downgraded at quarterback and traded Carr for 0 compensation due to his no-trade clause. Not only that, we're tied to Jimmy past this year. Yuck. 

[FloydFan]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Everything really comes down to the fact they went all in on Derek Carr. And Derek Carr let them down. 

That was the catalyst in all of this. You can like a player outside looking in, but different when you get them on the grass. 

They went all in thinking they had the QB and Carr was a let down. It sucks, but that is the reality. Devante, Hunter, Waller were all decisions resulting from the belief they had the QB in place.

You could tell early on last season they knew they made a mistake. They took the ball out of Carr's hands and started running the offense through Jacobs. He became the focal point of the offense that made it go, not the QB they bought in to. 

The rest is history... Carr was mediocre. They thought they could get Tom Brady made rash decisions as a result. And now the regime is unraveling around their QB decision. 

There are other components, mainly the defense. But it all starts and ends with do you have the guy at QB. They didn't, still don't and will like lose jobs over it in the end. 

No. You don’t get to put this regime’s failures on Carr. I agree with you on lots of things but that’s not what has happened here. Carr was a disappointment for them sure, but they don’t get the benefit of the doubt because they were the ones who hand chose this team because of Carr. I’m sorry but no this is a bad take. 

[big_palooka]

11 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

What about now? Is that why we can't play offense or defense unless we're playing the broncos?

Partly. Same issue on offense as it relates to QB. Guys are getting schemed open and the QB isn't seeing them and turning the ball over. 

9 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

How come you give Graham a pass for no talent at every possibility, but then also take every chance to mention Carr let them down?

The offense had far more talent. Guys were consistently open and Carr wasn't cutting the mustard. Same as Jimmy G now.

It falls on coaching too. Carr was a career average QB who they thought could elevate in their system. They missed. Then doubled down on average with Jimmy G. 

9 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

Outside of DA, what did you realistically expect Carr to do throwing to Mack Hollins, Moreau and Keenan Cole?
If you were a DC would you not Bracket DA and make the other WRs beat you? That literally happened every game. 
Yes fans screamed, Carr is ignoring DA, but teams literally knew he was our only passing option. 

That's not entirely accurate. But I get your point. Their was to much evidence of guys being open and Carr not getting them the ball. And the bigger issue, he wasn't letting plays develop. First sign of pressure, he'd check down. 

As for Adams, I watched him play years with Aaron Rodgers and he was never ignored for stretches like he was with Carr (there was a gaudy statistic about it last season). So that excuse misses me. Especially when I saw him do the same with Cooper in a different offense. Difference in being a mid QB and an elite guy. 

9 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

If they felt the QB is what let them down, why did they ‘upgrade’ WR2, TE and WR4?
Do they just have no idea how to build a team in your opinion? Cause that is also a problem. 

The traded Waller out for Meyers and wanted to add speed which they needed. I think they know how to build an offense, but not a team. Offensive coach leaning way to heavy on his offensive skill positions thinking the answer is to out gun teams. Wasn't the right approach.

9 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

We were what 15 or so in points scored, you claim the QB is what failed them. 
If that is the case why did they spend so much amping up the receiving core, when the DC can’t be evaluated because there is no talent there?

That is to me, terrible roster management, and reason to be let go. 

Yes, Carr left too many points (he's career awful in the red zone) on the board. He missed to many throws. He turned the ball over. And he continued to be soft in the pocket. He failed them. 15th in scoring when the could have been better.

Hollins was a FA, they traded Waller (looks like a good move). I have no problem adding Meyers who's a stud and adding speed via Tucker though not my preferred choice. 

The problem is they had no solution for QB. It was Tom or desperation. They chose the latter and that will likely be their undoing. 

Hindsight, if the options was Carr or Jimmy, just let Carr have a year 2. But he certainly didn't earn the contract. As I keep saying, don't pay for average. They've done it twice now.

[big_palooka]

8 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

How can you go all in on a guy and then not tailor the offense to them? The lack of shotgun and play action were glaring last year. The coach deserves a ton of blame as well for that dysfunction.

Carr didn't have his best year and the Raiders were still an above-average offense. He will cook in the Saints shotgun offense, especially once Kamara is back. Especially if they can sort out their horror show at tackle. I'm just calling it like I see it.

What's worse, we obviously downgraded at quarterback and traded Carr for 0 compensation due to his no-trade clause. Not only that, we're tied to Jimmy past this year. Yuck. 

Coaching deserves blame sure. But this falls flat when you see Carr flat missing open WR and simply failing to stand in the pocket letting plays develop. Carr is simply a mid QB and I don't think the offense matters. He's back in the same offense in NO, installed with Gruden's help.... still pedestrian. I don't think he will cook anything there and they will regret the contract. 

Agree completely on the latter. I didn't like the Jimmy G signing (paying for average again) and that is the move they have to own. So if he doesn't put it together, they don't deserve more time. 

If you were going to get rid of Carr, it was to rebuild. I've always said that. What they did is left themselves in the middle. Can't tank because you invested in Adams. Can't win many games because your QB sucks. They are directionless. 

 

[Jeremy408]

13 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Partly. Same issue on offense as it relates to QB. Guys are getting schemed open and the QB isn't seeing them and turning the ball over. 

He handpicked the quarterback who was originally drafted to play in his offense. We can't just blame the quarterback this time at some point you have to look at the system/playcalling 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Jeremy408

[big_palooka]

8 hours ago, FloydFan said:

No. You don’t get to put this regime’s failures on Carr. I agree with you on lots of things but that’s not what has happened here. Carr was a disappointment for them sure, but they don’t get the benefit of the doubt because they were the ones who hand chose this team because of Carr. I’m sorry but no this is a bad take. 

I'm not putting it all on Carr. There are a lot of problems in decisions they made including chosing this team because of Carr. 

I'm saying they made decisions based around Carr being their guy. Trade/signing Adams. Extending Renfrow and Waller. When Carr didn't pan out the way they envisioned, they were quick to move off him with no real solution past Tom Brady who retired. 

They own that mismanagement. In hindsight, they needed Brady to be iron clad before moving off Carr. They might as well kept him if the alternative was Jimmy G and see if he could develop in year 2. 

TL;DR - It was their decision and subsequent waffling of Derek Carr that was the catalyst for all decision making that has lead them to the hot seat. They either needed to move on day 1 or make it work with him.

[big_palooka]

4 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

He handpicked the quarterback who was originally drafted to play in his offense. We can't just blame the quarterback this time at some point you have to look at the system/playcalling 

I don't think with all the evidence out there, you can say the system is a problem. Guys are open everywhere, sometimes for TDs. You can scheme it up as a coach, but you can't throw the ball. 

That said, they need to coach Jimmy G on where the hell the ball needs to go if they are seeing what everyone else is. 

You can blame the QB when he's not good. And you can blame the coach/FO for signing him. Both are true in this case. 

[Jeremy408]

22 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I don't think with all the evidence out there, you can say the system is a problem. Guys are open everywhere, sometimes for TDs. You can scheme it up as a coach, but you can't throw the ball. 

That said, they need to coach Jimmy G on where the hell the ball needs to go if they are seeing what everyone else is. 

You can blame the QB when he's not good. And you can blame the coach/FO for signing him. Both are true in this case. 

So wait. You're saying that a quarterback who has been successful with another offense of guru,l who was the other person who originally drafted him and hand-picked him this off-season, and has him surrounded by one of the highest paid group of offensive skill players and that is somehow why they can't score at least 20 points in a game thus far? 
 

The evidence is an out there to support that it's simply the quarterback. In a lot of ways, this season is showing that Josh McDaniels may have never been good outside of Brady and Belichick. Because he ended up getting everything that he should need to be successful at the very least offensively and he's actually gotten worse since last year. That, the evidence to support.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Jeremy408

[BackinBlack]

50 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Partly. Same issue on offense as it relates to QB. Guys are getting schemed open and the QB isn't seeing them and turning the ball over. 

The offense had far more talent. Guys were consistently open and Carr wasn't cutting the mustard. Same as Jimmy G now.

It falls on coaching too. Carr was a career average QB who they thought could elevate in their system. They missed. Then doubled down on average with Jimmy G. 

That's not entirely accurate. But I get your point. Their was to much evidence of guys being open and Carr not getting them the ball. And the bigger issue, he wasn't letting plays develop. First sign of pressure, he'd check down. 

As for Adams, I watched him play years with Aaron Rodgers and he was never ignored for stretches like he was with Carr (there was a gaudy statistic about it last season). So that excuse misses me. Especially when I saw him do the same with Cooper in a different offense. Difference in being a mid QB and an elite guy. 

The traded Waller out for Meyers and wanted to add speed which they needed. I think they know how to build an offense, but not a team. Offensive coach leaning way to heavy on his offensive skill positions thinking the answer is to out gun teams. Wasn't the right approach.

Yes, Carr left too many points (he's career awful in the red zone) on the board. He missed to many throws. He turned the ball over. And he continued to be soft in the pocket. He failed them. 15th in scoring when the could have been better.

Hollins was a FA, they traded Waller (looks like a good move). I have no problem adding Meyers who's a stud and adding speed via Tucker though not my preferred choice. 

The problem is they had no solution for QB. It was Tom or desperation. They chose the latter and that will likely be their undoing. 

Hindsight, if the options was Carr or Jimmy, just let Carr have a year 2. But he certainly didn't earn the contract. As I keep saying, don't pay for average. They've done it twice now.

I agree with most of this. 
no solution for QB is unacceptable. Makes the handling of everything last year look even worse now too. 
when stiddy played well against the 9ers kind of made every see the vision. problem now is that more just cause of no game tape for the niners, and they thought we’d continue to come out extremely run heavy. Seems likely. 
 

then JMD made the choice to go with Jimmy. Who while yes is better than Carr in the Redzone, and I agree Carr struggles there, can only get there twice a game. 
 

im torn, I want a great qb which will require us to tank, but it’s also still Sept, and I hate giving up on raider football so early. 
 

hopefully AOC comes in looks great but our D drops off. If AOC shows the O system works I’m fine with JMD staying, but I’m talking big improvements. 
 

[big_palooka]

24 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

So wait. You're saying that a quarterback who has been successful with another offense of guru,l who was the other person who originally drafted him and hand-picked him this off-season, and has him surrounded by one of the highest paid group of offensive skill players and that is somehow why they can't score at least 20 points in a game thus far? 
 

The evidence is an out there to support that it's simply the quarterback. In a lot of ways, this season is showing that Josh McDaniels may have never been good outside of Brady and Belichick. Because he ended up getting everything that he should need to be successful at the very least offensively and he's actually gotten worse since last year. That, the evidence to support.

Yes, I'm saying Jimmy G, like Carr is leaving a lot of yardage and points on the field in this offense. McDaniel's offense performed well with rookie Mac Jones. They were consistent and among the top teams in the red zone. Which is partly why he was on a short list of coaching candidates. 

The scheme works when executed. Jimmy G is not executing it and that falls partly on coaching as well. They need to get him seeing the field. And the Oline needs to do a better job.

[big_palooka]

16 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

I agree with most of this. 
no solution for QB is unacceptable. Makes the handling of everything last year look even worse now too. 
when stiddy played well against the 9ers kind of made every see the vision. problem now is that more just cause of no game tape for the niners, and they thought we’d continue to come out extremely run heavy. Seems likely. 
 

then JMD made the choice to go with Jimmy. Who while yes is better than Carr in the Redzone, and I agree Carr struggles there, can only get there twice a game. 
 

im torn, I want a great qb which will require us to tank, but it’s also still Sept, and I hate giving up on raider football so early. 
 

hopefully AOC comes in looks great but our D drops off. If AOC shows the O system works I’m fine with JMD staying, but I’m talking big improvements. 
 

There were instances last season that made me optimistic. The KC game they nearly won. And the fact they blew leads, which sucked but felt like if corrected, there are several wins in there. 

I'm not giving up, because it is still early. I have to believe Jimmy G plays better football and the offense eventually gets going. They've had some scripted moments where they've looks potent. 

Really need to see where they are at the trade deadline as far as what moves I prefer. 

[true2form]

I think too much focus goes on the QBs not succeeding for the coaches and not enough goes to the coaches making the QBs worse. 

We can all agree that neither Carr or Jimmy are world beaters.  However, I've seen the worst of both of them under Josh. Carr was the worst he had been in years.  Jimmy looks like this is his first time playing in the NFL.

I know guys have been "schemed" open for both of them and they've missed them.  However, is Josh just making it too damn difficult that average QBs now look worse in his system?    

[big_palooka]

5 minutes ago, true2form said:

I think too much focus goes on the QBs not succeeding for the coaches and not enough goes to the coaches making the QBs worse. 

We can all agree that neither Carr or Jimmy are world beaters.  However, I've seen the worst of both of them under Josh. Carr was the worst he had been in years.  Jimmy looks like this is his first time playing in the NFL.

I know guys have been "schemed" open for both of them and they've missed them.  However, is Josh just making it too damn difficult that average QBs now look worse in his system?    

Probably some of that. His offense by all accounts is complicated. I'm sure he could simplify things. But these QBs are veteran guys. Mac Jones operated it just fine. What's the problem with these two?

[FloydFan]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

I'm not putting it all on Carr. There are a lot of problems in decisions they made including chosing this team because of Carr. 

I'm saying they made decisions based around Carr being their guy. Trade/signing Adams. Extending Renfrow and Waller. When Carr didn't pan out the way they envisioned, they were quick to move off him with no real solution past Tom Brady who retired. 

They own that mismanagement. In hindsight, they needed Brady to be iron clad before moving off Carr. They might as well kept him if the alternative was Jimmy G and see if he could develop in year 2. 

TL;DR - It was their decision and subsequent waffling of Derek Carr that was the catalyst for all decision making that has lead them to the hot seat. They either needed to move on day 1 or make it work with him.

Ahhh I got ya. Thanks for the clarification brother. I can see that more. 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

Yes, I'm saying Jimmy G, like Carr is leaving a lot of yardage and points on the field in this offense. McDaniel's offense performed well with rookie Mac Jones. They were consistent and among the top teams in the red zone. Which is partly why he was on a short list of coaching candidates. 

The scheme works when executed. Jimmy G is not executing it and that falls partly on coaching as well. They need to get him seeing the field. And the Oline needs to do a better job.

See, this is where I have to expose the fact that the quarterback will always be blamed for incompetency in FO leadership both during the season & off-season. 
 

-the first question you have to ask yourself is why does this supposed offensive mastermind only appear to work with one quarterback(outside of the best who ever played of course)Mac Jones when other real masterminds can work with almost any quarterback they get(while having lesser weapons)? Because he's not a mastermind

-the second question is why is the quarterback that was handpicked by this mastermind playcaller((who could've picked other quarterbacks that were signed later on in the preseason, but are doing better(Baker Mayfield for example) that are playing under lesser-known offensive coordinators.)) not performing well under him despite performing well under other coordinators in the past)? 
 

-Why has the team regressed in scoring since last year despite getting more patriots guys and guys on offense overall to go with the league leaders in rushing, and receiving that we had last year? 
 

I have answer for these? You bring up Mac Jones, but the reality is the patriots were top-five, and takeaways is that year so he was being gifted with starts in the red zone which is why the running back that was starting and year had 18 rushing touchdowns doesn't start any more in the NFL. It's also why Mac Jones didn't have that many yards that year, but had a lot of touchdowns. Because it's not hard to call that many plays when years starting in the red zone or when the other team can't score because they're playing against what are the best defensive play callers in the NFL who ever lived. 
 

That's why when he comes here and whoever the quarterback is isn't Tom Brady, and whoever the defensive coordinator is isn't Bill Belichick. Then it doesn't look good anymore. It's not as simple as "it's because the quarterbacks not seeing the field." It's because when you have Brady and/or Belichick you don't have to be a good play caller. That's how Davante Adams can almost go for 200 yards in a game and you still don't score more than 20 points. 
 

^ that's what the evidence actually supports

what happens(and it's not just you by the way) on this farm is going to anything goes wrong. The majority of people just point to the quarterback ensure it has some what to do with the quarterback but what always happens is we ignore literally everything else including the obvious common denominator that Josh McDaniels works when you have the best quarterback who ever lived or when you have the best defensive mind who ever lived getting the ball back for you on a constant basis, but it doesn't work when you don't have those circumstances. Nothings going to change that.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Jeremy408