Fire Pace and Nagy

[Epyon]

Somewhat related to this topic, but I had a rather troubling thought. 

Even if Lawrence was the next Andrew Luck, and even if we could somehow trade to get him in the draft.... Would he actually be able to save our offense? 

I'm starting to be of the opinion that even Mahomes, Brady, or Rodgers at their best couldn't redeem this offense the way its currently built, let alone some rookie qb who has to somehow put the entire offense on his back and win games with just his arm. We already ruined Trubisky trying to play that game, and I think we need to focus hard on a rebuild that more or less entirely overhauls the offense. At this point, Mooney is the only starter I'm interested in keeping around to see where he ends up. Kmet can stay too, until we actually know what we've got, ditto Peirce, as well as Wims and Ridley at least for however long they remain cheap. Most, or even all of the rest is expendable including the entire offensive line, Montgomery, and Cohen (who can be the kick returner) 

That near complete disdain for our starting offense is imo probably the biggest indictment against Pace or Nagy keeping their jobs because I'm talking about something that would require 2-3 years of drafting and fa to fix/rebuild. I'd add that also wouldn't have the resources to spend if we go up to get that qb, either, and I could see us having the same problem Luck did beyond Indy's Oline during most of his career there.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Epyon

[WindyCity]

2 hours ago, RunningVaccs said:

This train of thoguht is truly the most terrifying train of thought from Windy

 

I am not along with the fire Pace ride, think that means Nagy too and it makes sense to let things ride this season. BUT, if they were to do that, is there any way to force a GMs hand to fire sale the expensive and older parts of the team mid year? If we're burning down the house and going with new personnel, they should pick their players, and it would be a lot easier if you didn't have to extend Robinson and could get a pick, move Quinn and Mack back out there. It's a crummy thought but if you're going to start over in a year and need a QB, I'd rather have more picks to trade up or take swings. 

Windy,  what's it feel like to finally have people joining you in the desert at your compound, gotta be nice having help mixing the Kool Aid right?

I welcome everyone without judgement. We all come to the correct answer in our own time.

I have seen enough bad GMing in my day that it has become easier and easier to spot the warning signs. 

[WindyCity]

56 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

I'm of the opinion that Pace is not going to fire sale anybody unless it is apparent by mid season that this team is going no where and he is guaranteed back as the GM in 2021 for another rebuild.  And I have my doubts that another team is going to take on the contracts of guys like Mack and Quinn anyway while also expecting any good draft pick value back for them.

Robinson is a little different because whoever would trade for him doesn't owe him anything beyond 2020 and can in a way control how much he gets on his next contract with the various tags available to use.

This team has a lot of contracts on D beyond this year that are still owed big money.  That tells me Pace is pretty safely entrenched in his role as GM, otherwise he wouldn't have got the green light to go ahead and hand out that kind of money this past offseason.

Nagy on the other hand....he made his move to go to a new QB, so it's put up or shut up time.

Even with the move to his QB, Pace has provided sub standard offensive talent. The OL was punked against the Colts. Flat out embarrassed. That is a talent issue.

[WindyCity]

11 minutes ago, Epyon said:

Somewhat related to this topic, but I had a rather troubling thought. 

Even if Lawrence was the next Andrew Luck, and even if we could somehow trade to get him in the draft.... Would he actually be able to save our offense? 

I'm starting to be of the opinion that even Mahomes, Brady, or Rodgers at their best couldn't redeem this offense the way its currently built, let alone some rookie qb who has to somehow put the entire offense on his back and win games with just his arm. We already ruined Trubisky trying to play that game, and I think we need to focus hard on a rebuild that more or less entirely overhauls the offense. At this point, Mooney is the only starter I'm interested in keeping around to see where he ends up. Kmet can stay too, until we actually know what we've got, ditto Peirce, as well as Wims and Ridley at least for however long they remain cheap. Most, or even all of the rest is expendable including the entire offensive line, Montgomery, and Cohen (who can be the kick returner) 

That near complete disdain for our starting offense is imo probably the biggest indictment against Pace or Nagy keeping their jobs because I'm talking about something that would require 2-3 years of drafting and fa to fix/rebuild. I'd add that also wouldn't have the resources to spend if we go up to get that qb, either, and I could see us having the same problem Luck did beyond Indy's Oline during most of his career there.

What is Pace's best offensive pick? A couple of solid interior OLmen.

The truth is in 6 years Pace has added 1 difference maker to the offense and that is Allen Robinson. His offensive draft picks have been abysmal to okay.

[dll2000]

25 minutes ago, Epyon said:

Somewhat related to this topic, but I had a rather troubling thought. 

Even if Lawrence was the next Andrew Luck, and even if we could somehow trade to get him in the draft.... Would he actually be able to save our offense? 

I'm starting to be of the opinion that even Mahomes, Brady, or Rodgers at their best couldn't redeem this offense the way its currently built, let alone some rookie qb who has to somehow put the entire offense on his back and win games with just his arm. We already ruined Trubisky trying to play that game, and I think we need to focus hard on a rebuild that more or less entirely overhauls the offense. At this point, Mooney is the only starter I'm interested in keeping around to see where he ends up. Kmet can stay too, until we actually know what we've got, ditto Peirce, as well as Wims and Ridley at least for however long they remain cheap. Most, or even all of the rest is expendable including the entire offensive line, Montgomery, and Cohen (who can be the kick returner) 

That near complete disdain for our starting offense is imo probably the biggest indictment against Pace or Nagy keeping their jobs because I'm talking about something that would require 2-3 years of drafting and fa to fix/rebuild. I'd add that also wouldn't have the resources to spend if we go up to get that qb, either, and I could see us having the same problem Luck did beyond Indy's Oline during most of his career there.

Take a look at who Rodgers was throwing to last night and who Brady has been throwing to much of his career.    Brady has been getting like 5 drops a game this year and his best players are playing hurt. 

A really good QB can make a world of difference.  I think you build O with QB and Oline.  Rest of guys are easier to find.  
 

[WindyCity]

12 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Take a look at who Rodgers was throwing to last night and who Brady has been throwing to much of his career.    Brady has been getting like 5 drops a game this year and his best players are playing hurt. 

A really good QB can make a world of difference.  I think you build O with QB and Oline.  Rest of guys are easier to find.  
 

Not if your Ryan Pace

[WindyCity]

 

When asked about HC openings.

 

[dll2000]

41 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

Not if your Ryan Pace

Yes, it is very difficult to defend offensive picks and FAs as a whole.  They have been objectively very bad as a group.

 

 

 

 

[topwop1]

1 hour ago, WindyCity said:

Even with the move to his QB, Pace has provided sub standard offensive talent. The OL was punked against the Colts. Flat out embarrassed. That is a talent issue.

The thing with Pace is that he comes from a defensive background and it shows seeing that he has hit more frequently with picks and acquisitions on the defensive side of the ball vs the offensive side.

Is that a knock in him?  Sure I guess you can say it is, but in the same token which GM around the league is a master at both offensive and defensive drafting?  The ones that appear to be are likely getting a lot of great feedback from their coaching staffs on which type of players best fit the different types of systems they are trying to run.  On the other hand you can draft good football players that will fit any system.

My point is that while Pace has not been very good on the offensive side, I believe that the coaching staff also deserves some criticism for this.  Nagy should know the weaknesses on his offense so that they can go and prioritize and allocate the proper resources and invest in those positions in the offseason.

IMO Nagy is in way over his head.

[dll2000]

7 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

 

When asked about HC openings.

 

Here is problem with all those teams and Chicago.   Minnesota maybe excepting as they have some competent people.   

Same problem with 90% of teams in NFL.

You have to build a top to Bottom program that is on same page across board from scheme, to practice and development structure to draft picks.   The new coach and GM model every 4-5 years with each guy doing his own thing within his speciality is an inferior model.    But it is model of almost every team because of both lack of patience and poaching talent off of other staffs every season.  

Patriots and Pittsburgh are only teams that have done it long term and Pittsburgh is only org. that has done it through multiple HCs starting with Chuck Noll and Art Rooney who set it up.

49ers had a program rolling with Walsh and DeBarotlo Jr. and they would have kept it going after Walsh longer if Debarotlo didn't get booted out of league. 

Cowboys could have it I think if they let Jimmy Johnson have his way across board and Jerry Jones would have cooperated with him.   It is rare.  

Problem is that it often has to start with a competent person in ownership who can run an organization and who then makes a good choice for people that work well with him and so on down the line.  And then doesn't panic when things don't go their way for a time.    But he has to have a vision for entire org.    That or a coach with a good overall vision who is let loose to implement it.   Ask Detroit head coach how that works out though when you start slow or don't get buy in.  Or lack charisma to get people on board even if you are right.  

Programs are easy to say and hard to do.  But they are key to long term winning at any level of football.   Anyone can catch lightening in a bottle once or twice. 

Andy Reid seems to be setting something up in KC to his liking and keeps a pipeline of young coaches from within like Belichick does. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dll2000]

I think Nagy could be a good HC and Pace could be a good GM if they evolved and learned from their weaknesses and mistakes.  

Pace does not respect O line nearly enough and seems unable to judge skill players.    He should have upgraded one of OT positions this year in FA instead of just finding a guard.  Even at expense of Quinn or Graham.  

Nagy does not hold players accountable quickly enough for bad play and keep pressure on.  Too busy being a players coach.    His practice structure and responsibility delegation are sorely lacking as well.

He is not developing offensive talent or young players.   They are either good or not, but aren't making jumps in performance year to year.   Worse many players regress.

Game plans often leave something to be desired.  

But I will say they handle and manage crisis and personalities very well.  Pace manages cap very well and seldom overpays for players.  

Pressure is on.   I would say 11 wins and noticeable offensive improvement or hit the reset button on everything.   That is doable with this talent.

 

 

[WindyCity]

30 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

The thing with Pace is that he comes from a defensive background and it shows seeing that he has hit more frequently with picks and acquisitions on the defensive side of the ball vs the offensive side.

Is that a knock in him?  Sure I guess you can say it is, but in the same token which GM around the league is a master at both offensive and defensive drafting?  The ones that appear to be are likely getting a lot of great feedback from their coaching staffs on which type of players best fit the different types of systems they are trying to run.  On the other hand you can draft good football players that will fit any system.

My point is that while Pace has not been very good on the offensive side, I believe that the coaching staff also deserves some criticism for this.  Nagy should know the weaknesses on his offense so that they can go and prioritize and allocate the proper resources and invest in those positions in the offseason.

IMO Nagy is in way over his head.

It is 2020, being bad on the offensive side of the ball isn't really an option.

I agree that everyone has weak spots, but you cannot be flat out BAD on one side of the ball and Pace is BAD at identifying offensive talent.

[WindyCity]

18 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Here is problem with all those teams and Chicago.   Minnesota maybe excepting as they have some competent people.   

Same problem with 90% of teams in NFL.

You have to build a top to Bottom program that is on same page across board from scheme, to practice and development structure to draft picks.   The new coach and GM model every 4-5 years with each guy doing his own thing within his speciality is an inferior model.    But it is model of almost every team because of both lack of patience and poaching talent off of other staffs every season.  

Patriots and Pittsburgh are only teams that have done it long term and Pittsburgh is only org. that has done it through multiple HCs starting with Chuck Noll and Art Rooney who set it up.

49ers had a program rolling with Walsh and DeBarotlo Jr. and they would have kept it going after Walsh longer if Debarotlo didn't get booted out of league. 

Cowboys could have it I think if they let Jimmy Johnson have his way across board and Jerry Jones would have cooperated with him.   It is rare.  

Problem is that it often has to start with a competent person in ownership who can run an organization and who then makes a good choice for people that work well with him and so on down the line.  And then doesn't panic when things don't go their way for a time.    But he has to have a vision for entire org.    That or a coach with a good overall vision who is let loose to implement it.   Ask Detroit head coach how that works out though when you start slow or don't get buy in.  Or lack charisma to get people on board even if you are right.  

Programs are easy to say and hard to do.  But they are key to long term winning at any level of football.   Anyone can catch lightening in a bottle once or twice. 

Andy Reid seems to be setting something up in KC to his liking and keeps a pipeline of young coaches from within like Belichick does. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Continuity is only good if the people are good at what they do.

If they are not then it is actually bad.

[dll2000]

35 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

Continuity is only good if the people are good at what they do.

If they are not then it is actually bad.

Agreed.   But sometimes you can start out bad and turn out good in long run given chance.  I can't say if that would apply to Pace and Nagy or not.   Probably not.  Especially not in this city.  

But my point isn't GM and Coach as individuals.   It is philosophy and management marrying up with coaching and draft and practice and development and organization as a whole.      So if you lose a talented OC or DC or position coach it doesn't matter.   You have a pipeline of guys being trained in techniques and scheme of your system.   Being trained in your way of doing things.   

Now Reid lets guys have wide breath of bigger picture so they can go into world be good HCs better than Belichick tree.   Belichick keeps them specialized, but they are specialized in a particular job done his way.   That is efficient, but not good for the individuals.   But he can easily plug in cogs to his machine that way.  

Bears clearly don't have a program.   

 

 

[WindyCity]

19 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Agreed.   But sometimes you can start out bad and turn out good in long run given chance.  I can't say if that would apply to Pace and Nagy or not.   Probably not.  Especially not in this city.  

But my point isn't GM and Coach as individuals.   It is philosophy and management marrying up with coaching and draft and practice and development and organization as a whole.      So if you lose a talented OC or DC or position coach it doesn't matter.   You have a pipeline of guys being trained in techniques and scheme of your system.   Being trained in your way of doing things.   

Now Reid lets guys have wide breath of bigger picture so they can go into world be good HCs better than Belichick tree.   Belichick keeps them specialized, but they are specialized in a particular job done his way.   That is efficient, but not good for the individuals.   But he can easily plug in cogs to his machine that way.  

Bears clearly don't have a program.   

 

 

I just cannot live with Pace's continues mediocrity on the OL and missing at QB.

Those are the foundations of a good offense and he seem disinterested in one and incapable of the other.