Top 10 Players in the league

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, beekay414 said:

For sure. The let it fly motto that Bud employs only works in the playoffs if you have consistent shooters. You're also playing the same team every game so you need to learn to adjust both in-game and game-to-game. Bud does neither or, if he does, he adjusts for one game and then reverts right back. It's maddening. 

Bucks need to make some moves this offseason. Who do you want them to target? 

[champ11]

1 minute ago, Bullet Club said:

People were also hating on LeBron for losing to Orlando in 2009. A lot of times people aren't paying attention to what's actually going on.

saying he isn't in the top tier of players is not hating lol. i'm running to lunch so i haven't responded to any of the latest stuff yet. i'd say hanging onto the numbers and not looking at offensive performance and skills down the stretch of close playoff games might be not paying attention 

[beekay414]

Just now, NYRaider said:

Bucks need to make some moves this offseason. Who do you want them to target? 

An iso ballhandler that can shoot and, well, shooters lol

I'm tired of seeing guys like Pat Connaughton and Eric Bledsoe get a wide open look and then brick it back iron.

[beekay414]

1 minute ago, champ11 said:

saying he isn't in the top tier of players is not hating lol. i'm running to lunch so i haven't responded to any of the latest stuff yet. i'd say hanging onto the numbers and not looking at offensive performance and skills down the stretch of close playoff games might be not paying attention 

I'd say not paying attention to coaching and situational basketball also counts towards not paying attention. You see what you want to see and that's all there is to it.

Edited October 26, 2020 by beekay414

[Mox]

6 minutes ago, champ11 said:

saying he isn't in the top tier of players is not hating lol. i'm running to lunch so i haven't responded to any of the latest stuff yet. i'd say hanging onto the numbers and not looking at offensive performance and skills down the stretch of close playoff games might be not paying attention 

That wasn't a shot at you. It was a generalization.

Giannis 4th quarters

G1-1/4   3 points 6 boards 3 assists

G2-4/6   11 points 5 boards

G3-2/7  4 points 3 boards 1 assist

I'd take all three of those over 0/5 0 points 2 rebounds 1 assist (Kawhi game 7). I'm using numbers because it's tangible evidence that things aren't as bad as narrative suggests. When you add in context of surrounding talent, matchups (Bam #1 iso defender in NBA in 2020 by PPP), and coaching, Giannis is clearly an upper echelon guy. In my opinion, #2.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Bullet Club

[champ11]

1 hour ago, Bullet Club said:

That wasn't a shot at you. It was a generalization.

Giannis 4th quarters

G1-1/4   3 points 6 boards 3 assists

G2-4/6   11 points 5 boards

G3-2/7  4 points 3 boards 1 assist

I'd take all three of those over 0/5 0 points 2 rebounds 1 assist (Kawhi game 7). I'm using numbers because it's tangible evidence that things aren't as bad as narrative suggests. When you add in context of surrounding talent, matchups (Bam #1 iso defender in NBA in 2020 by PPP), and coaching, Giannis is clearly an upper echelon guy. In my opinion, #2.

All time terrible game 7 from Kawhi. Don't think he has gotten out of this season slander free from me. 

I still just don't really think it's narrative - i think it's evaluating his offensive shot creation in the playoffs. Do you think he's good enough there? Kawhi has proven to be incredible in that area before - do you think Giannis has proven it? This conversation feels pretty wild to me after watching that Miami series and how the Bucks offense was looking down the stretch of those games. It was brutal. I've already acknowledged the issues the Bucks have in the thread with the coaching and the other guys. If you want to push all the blame onto those guys that is certainly a choice

 

[Kip Smithers]

If KD is healthy, and he’s at least close to his best, then yes I am taking him over Giannis no question. It’s absolutely fair to bring up Giannis and his limitations against him. 

[champ11]

1 hour ago, beekay414 said:

I'd say not paying attention to coaching and situational basketball also counts towards not paying attention. You see what you want to see and that's all there is to it.

I mean I'm just watching basketball. I like Giannis. I absolutely don't have a dog in this fight lol 

[Mox]

43 minutes ago, champ11 said:

All time terrible game 7 from Kawhi. Don't think he has gotten out of this season slander free from me. 

I still just don't really think it's narrative - i think it's evaluating his offensive shot creation in the playoffs. Do you think he's good enough there? Kawhi has proven to be incredible in that area before - do you think Giannis has proven it? This conversation feels pretty wild to me after watching that Miami series and how the Bucks offense was looking down the stretch of those games. It was brutal. I've already acknowledged the issues the Bucks have in the thread with the coaching and the other guys. If you want to push all the blame onto those guys that is certainly a choice

 

He certainly has a ways to go in terms of improving his scoring arsenal. No disagreement there. He's not blameless. However, you acknowledge Bud was outcoached and didn't adapt. His cast went cold. Those are all contributing factors. With that said, I still think due to everything he brings in total he's the 2nd best player in the NBA. I don't think anyone but LeBron takes the Bucks further than they ended up. I'm also of the opinion that Kawhi's reputation is remarkably inflated. There is really no way I'm taking him over Giannis especially when you factor in all the load management he does.

[champ11]

7 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

He certainly has a ways to go in terms of improving his scoring arsenal. No disagreement there. He's not blameless. However, you acknowledge Bud was outcoached and didn't adapt. His cast went cold. Those are all contributing factors. With that said, I still think due to everything he brings in total he's the 2nd best player in the NBA. I don't think anyone but LeBron takes the Bucks further than they ended up. I'm also of the opinion that Kawhi's reputation is remarkably inflated. There is really no way I'm taking him over Giannis especially when you factor in all the load management he does.

I think a lot of it is organizational failure. Giannis shooting threes in key situations was tough to watch. They will leave him open his whole career. You take that all day as the defense. BK said earlier in the thread Giannis has a midrange game...okay....I need to see that. The fullback play doesn't work consistently in playoff basketball. He needs some sort of counter. You can place the blame wherever, but at the end of the day if you are a top tier player in the NBA I am going to look at you when it comes to these issues. Bud limiting his minutes in the playoffs? A joke. Bud should probably go just for that. At the same time....Giannis can't let that happen next year. I hope it is a lesson learned. 

And I am open to that about Kawhi. Fair thoughts. I just think I have a threshold on the top level and Giannis hasn't passed it at any point for me. I'd definitely take Giannis over Kawhi for a regular season and if I was starting a team from scratch. 

[Mox]

23 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I think a lot of it is organizational failure. Giannis shooting threes in key situations was tough to watch. They will leave him open his whole career. You take that all day as the defense. BK said earlier in the thread Giannis has a midrange game...okay....I need to see that. The fullback play doesn't work consistently in playoff basketball. He needs some sort of counter. You can place the blame wherever, but at the end of the day if you are a top tier player in the NBA I am going to look at you when it comes to these issues. Bud limiting his minutes in the playoffs? A joke. Bud should probably go just for that. At the same time....Giannis can't let that happen next year. I hope it is a lesson learned. 

And I am open to that about Kawhi. Fair thoughts. I just think I have a threshold on the top level and Giannis hasn't passed it at any point for me. I'd definitely take Giannis over Kawhi for a regular season and if I was starting a team from scratch. 

My definition of best player is: who gives you the best chance of winning a championship. Part of what goes into that is having a good enough regular season to garner a high seed and be a contender. Giannis virtually guarantees you a top 3 seed regardless of cast. Kawhi, with his load management and injury issues does not. He may be a more resilient postseason scorer but if he can't load manage because his cast isn't good than it's not going to matter. He's been tremendously lucky to have only played on deep, good teams his whole career (and with elite coaching until this season). The only reason I have him over Curry is because Curry's durability is a question mark too. 

Yes, Giannis needs a better counter but he also needs a coach who can adapt. Not being to scheme around a wall is pretty weak. The evidence suggests he hits from midrange at a good clip but doesn't take many so it may be a sample size thing. He's not a perfect player by any means but I view his total package as better than anyone other than LeBron's despite his flaws. It makes it easier to take him over Kawhi, Curry and Harden because they either have durability issues, postseason issues of their own, or both.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Bullet Club

[champ11]

16 hours ago, Bullet Club said:

My definition of best player is: who gives you the best chance of winning a championship. Part of what goes into that is having a good enough regular season to garner a high seed and be a contender. Giannis virtually guarantees you a top 3 seed regardless of cast. Kawhi, with his load management and injury issues does not. He may be a more resilient postseason scorer but if he can't load manage because his cast isn't good than it's not going to matter. He's been tremendously lucky to have only played on deep, good teams his whole career (and with elite coaching until this season). The only reason I have him over Curry is because Curry's durability is a question mark too. 

Yes, Giannis needs a better counter but he also needs a coach who can adapt. Not being to scheme around a wall is pretty weak. The evidence suggests he hits from midrange at a good clip but doesn't take many so it may be a sample size thing. He's not a perfect player by any means but I view his total package as better than anyone other than LeBron's despite his flaws. It makes it easier to take him over Kawhi, Curry and Harden because they either have durability issues, postseason issues of their own, or both.

Yeah, that's a fair argument. He also has the east - not totally his fault he hasn't beaten a good team in the playoffs. There just aren't many good teams to beat over there. I think his current limitations have more value in the postseason, like we discussed, but at the end of the day I have 3 champions rated over him -2 of which are definite health concerns. Well, really 3 of them lol. So if I approached it your way I would probably agree. 

It's interesting to me how much leniency I should give Giannis on the supporting cast. I think the talent is solid. I think the system is fools gold. They gotta do something different and Giannis needs to switch the approach a bit. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

On 10/26/2020 at 7:09 AM, champ11 said:

kyrie as a top 10 guy is just indefensible lol. no freakin chance. and i love watching the dude play

I like @Bullet Club's list - I think we have a pretty set top 2 tiers. for me:

Tier 1A

LeBron James

Tier 1B

Kevin Durant 

Steph Curry

Kawhi Leonard

Tier 1C

Giannis Antetokounmpo (i'll take one good playoff series win...sorry)

James Harden

Tier 2

Nikola Jokic

Anthony Davis 

Luka Doncic

And then the next tier is a few guys. I'd probably have Dame first up and therefore #10

 

Move Anthony Davis to tier 1C. He at least deserves to be with Giannis and Harden, especially after his postseason run. Those two put up great numbers and are regular season monsters, but still have their flaws in 4th quarters of postseason games. You can't watch Giannis be a complete non-factor in some of those tight Heat games and put him in a tier above AD, who was just as good as LeBron. I'm fine with KD at tier 1B, especially when he is coming off the Achilles. But him and Bron are the clear top 2, with Steph/Kawhi a little below them. I'd give Lillard his respect and put him with Jokic and Doncic. Butler is a tricky one. He was so good down the stretch of like five or six playoff games and had an all time finals up until game 6. But then there are other games where he is just good and not dominant. I don't know, but I'd put him in tier 2, but I could see why you didn't.

Until Kyrie shows he can stay healthy, he has no business being in the top 10 conversation. He was damn good when he played last season, but key words "when he played."  

[J-ALL-DAY]

On 10/26/2020 at 10:53 AM, Bullet Club said:

That wasn't a shot at you. It was a generalization.

Giannis 4th quarters

G1-1/4   3 points 6 boards 3 assists

G2-4/6   11 points 5 boards

G3-2/7  4 points 3 boards 1 assist

I'd take all three of those over 0/5 0 points 2 rebounds 1 assist (Kawhi game 7). I'm using numbers because it's tangible evidence that things aren't as bad as narrative suggests. When you add in context of surrounding talent, matchups (Bam #1 iso defender in NBA in 2020 by PPP), and coaching, Giannis is clearly an upper echelon guy. In my opinion, #2.

Giannis in game 1 went scoreless in the last six minutes and made no impact at all. Was not guarding Butler nor did he create for others down the stretch or really even look for his shot all that much. He also missed two FTs. Game 2 Giannis piled it on late, but due to the Heat doing their best to choke the game away, the Bucks ended up tying the game so props to him. Game 3 was another game down the stretch he made no impact at all. You cannot just give him the ball and let him take over like Butler did in that same game or how LeBron has done so his entire career and especially in game 5 of the finals. He's flat out too limited without having a reliable jumper and one on one game from the perimeter to be THAT guy. And it's not just about him scoring. If you can give him the ball and let him create for either himself or his teammates, then that is one thing. But he can't do that. Last five minutes of the game, he's used more as a roll man and it ends up coming down to guys like Middleton having to go shot for shot with the opposing team's best player. If the Bucks aren't going to overwhelm a team and the games come down to the wire, then pretty much everyone knows how it will end. 

Kawhi deserves major criticism for his performance in game 7 and just overall in the last three games when the Clippers had big leads. No one is going to put him up in the top tier after his and his team's meltdown. And that is completely fair. 

[Tyronnosaurus]

I am going to include healthy Durant and Curry.

 

1. LeBron James

2. Kawhi Leonard

3. Kevin Durant

4. Giannis Antetokounmpo

5. Anthony Davis

6. Steph Curry

7. Luka Dončić

8. Jim Haren

9. Jimmy Butler

10a. Nikola Jokič

10b. Damian Lillard

10c. Chris Paul

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Tyronnosaurus