Thanksgiving Special - Game 1: Lions (4-6) vs Texans (3-7)

[ET80]

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

One thing we do have is the purging of the group of players that hated Patricia (Quin, Slay and Diggs being the primary members), which gave those players a chance to speak out when they left. They did just that. The Slay story is what came of it, and not much else.

Jadevion Clowney, Andre Johnson Duane Brown, DeAndre Hopkins, AJ Bouye, Brandon Brooks are all guys that had issues with BoB and either left or were traded away. None of them spoke out (except for Hopkins, simply because of the "WTF" randomness of the trade - both sides had to speak because nobody was going to let it go).

A lot of these guys keep mum because they're still trying to maintain a career, and trashing a former boss isn't going to do that.

[Joe_is_the_best]

3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

He ...insisted on acting like an accomplished head coach when he wasn't one.

Sounds like Josh McDaniels

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, Joe_is_the_best said:

Sounds like Josh McDaniels

Absolutely does.

[diehardlionfan]

21 hours ago, ET80 said:

Jadevion Clowney, Andre Johnson Duane Brown, DeAndre Hopkins, AJ Bouye, Brandon Brooks are all guys that had issues with BoB and either left or were traded away. None of them spoke out (except for Hopkins, simply because of the "WTF" randomness of the trade - both sides had to speak because nobody was going to let it go).

A lot of these guys keep mum because they're still trying to maintain a career, and trashing a former boss isn't going to do that.

In Detroit the apologists point to former NE players wanting to play for Patricia.

Having signed lucrative free agent contracts I wonder what else they would say? I wonder which of them signed because,

a) Players like familiarity.

b) They know their skill set is suited to Patricias scheme.

c) they actually like Patricia.

These same apologists now want the Lions to lose out simply for draft considerations. Ironic these same fans support Patricia attempting to change culture then conveniently overlook the negative impact of losing.

For a period of about 6 weeks it appeared Patricia might have the Lions at least capable of winning half the games. Then they lost Stafford and the team collapsed. Quinn and Patricia had a totally inadequate back up QB and weren’t able to even slightly mitigate the loss of Stafford. As we can see this year the top 5 pick hasn’t helped, at all.

The incompetence of Patricia and Quinn is pretty obvious. 

 

[diehardlionfan]

On 11/27/2020 at 10:30 AM, candyman93 said:

If you guys had a great or even just good defense, I’d understand defending him to some extent. You don't even have that.

 

Now, if you get a HC that’s an innovative OC, watch out. Go back to the days of letting Stafford sling it. Draft some studs at WR and you’ll be fun and fantastic to watch.

Pretty much. Patricia is and has been a dumpster fire. My favourite is his inability to have the correct amount of players on the field

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

6 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

In Detroit the apologists point to former NE players wanting to play for Patricia.

Having signed lucrative free agent contracts I wonder what else they would say? I wonder which of them signed because,

a) Players like familiarity.

b) They know their skill set is suited to Patricias scheme.

c) they actually like Patricia.

These same apologists now want the Lions to lose out simply for draft considerations. Ironic these same fans support Patricia attempting to change culture then conveniently overlook the negative impact of losing.

For a period of about 6 weeks it appeared Patricia might have the Lions at least capable of winning half the games. Then they lost Stafford and the team collapsed. Quinn and Patricia had a totally inadequate back up QB and weren’t able to even slightly mitigate the loss of Stafford. As we can see this year the top 5 pick hasn’t helped, at all.

The incompetence of Patricia and Quinn is pretty obvious. 

It's pretty amazing how players actually liking Patricia is impossible. Imagine knowing nothing about their relationships with Patricia and drawing the negative, worst-case conclusion each time. What a way to live.

Me believing that draft capital matters has nothing to do with my (consistent) view of how much time a head coach should be given to build a team and win games. There were plenty of anti-Patricia fans that wanted the Lions to tank before the season even started. It's my opinion that, if your team isn't going to make the playoffs, gaining significant draft capital is far more important than winning meaningless games. Of course, reasonable people can disagree.

[diehardlionfan]

23 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I mean, respectfully, this isn't accurate. The few Lions fans that supported Patricia after 2019 did so because he had only completed two years as a coach, and was without his best player (Stafford) for half of his second year. Our stance was that Patricia had failed to get results, but that coaches should have three years to build a roster.

Even you supported Patricia after the Lions almost beat the Chiefs in 2019, saying: "I'm really happy overall with the Lions. We are beginning to see how they’ve constructed the team and it’s paying dividends."

Stafford was injured weeks later, missed the rest of the season and suddenly Patricia was "incompetent" and those that wanted to give him a 3rd year were "apologists". Not apologists, just consistent.

Consistently wrong. Patricia had the team LOOKING like they might be capable of .500 football. He lost Stafford and the team could do NOTHING. Sorry, that’s incompetence. One wouldn’t expect them to win the Super Bowl but it seems most teams losing the starting QB can at least win a game or two. Not Patricias Lions because their lack of planning for all potential outcomes was sadly lacking.

Patricia was a mistake and it’s been evident for some time. Most organizations would’ve terminated him prior to this but the Lions are the Lions and have displayed organizational incompetence for 60 years. 

Denver tried the NE experiment but we’re smart enough to end the experiment in year two. It seems other organizations are much slower to recognize incompetence. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

3 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

Most organizations would’ve terminated him prior to this but the Lions are the Lions and have displayed organizational incompetence for 60 years. 

Most organizations would not fire a head coach after a second year in which their best player missed the majority of the season, especially when, before that player's injury, the team was "on the right track" (according to even negative fans).

Edited November 28, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[diehardlionfan]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

It's pretty amazing how players actually liking Patricia is impossible. Imagine knowing nothing about their relationships with Patricia and drawing the negative, worst-case conclusion each time. What a way to live.

Me believing that draft capital matters has nothing to do with my (consistent) view of how much time a head coach should be given to build a team and win games. There were plenty of anti-Patricia fans that wanted the Lions to tank before the season even started. It's my opinion that, if your team isn't going to make the playoffs, gaining significant draft capital is far more important than winning meaningless games. Of course, reasonable people can disagree.

TL you’ve been in the camp of giving coaches and GM’s more time forever. Your consistency doesn’t make you correct!

Of course it’s possible players like Patricia. I even included it as a reason for free agents signing. You can’t ignore the fact that Patricias culture demands players shut up though.

You’re right, I know nothing of the personal relationships however you don’t either my friend. You speak of consistency but in the case of Slay and Diggs you take Patricias side yet if a player says they like Patricia you take their side. In other words you choose to believe the dialogue that suits your narrative.

The Lions have decades of draft capital. I don’t think there’s another NFL team that’s had as many high picks as the Lions in the past 20 years. There are many teams that have drafted lower for years but they are consistently competitive. Other teams have the ability to rebuild through the draft. The Lions once again have proven incompetent.

You simply can’t effect culture change properly in an organization that so readily accepts losing and has a history of rewarding incompetence. 

Losing is not acceptable. The Lions staff should do their best to put the team in a position to win every week. The players need to take the field doing their best to win.

Losing  in an effort to attain more valuable draft capital is a loser strategy and undermines everything an organization should strive for. 

 

 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

10 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

TL you’ve been in the camp of giving coaches and GM’s more time forever. Your consistency doesn’t make you correct!

Of course it’s possible players like Patricia. I even included it as a reason for free agents signing. You can’t ignore the fact that Patricias culture demands players shut up though.

You’re right, I know nothing of the personal relationships however you don’t either my friend. You speak of consistency but in the case of Slay and Diggs you take Patricias side yet if a player says they like Patricia you take their side. In other words you choose to believe the dialogue that suits your narrative.

The Lions have decades of draft capital. I don’t think there’s another NFL team that’s had as many high picks as the Lions in the past 20 years. There are many teams that have drafted lower for years but they are consistently competitive. Other teams have the ability to rebuild through the draft. The Lions once again have proven incompetent.

You simply can’t effect culture change properly in an organization that so readily accepts losing and has a history of rewarding incompetence. 

Losing is not acceptable. The Lions staff should do their best to put the team in a position to win every week. The players need to take the field doing their best to win.

Losing  in an effort to attain more valuable draft capital is a loser strategy and undermines everything an organization should strive for. 

I've always said that a head coach should get three seasons to build a roster and show what he's capable of. I have held Patricia to that same standard. I will always feel that way. Now that he has shown, during his third year, that he isn't capable of building a winning team, I feel that he should be fired. Consistency.

Exactly: I don't know anything about their personal relationships. Instead of assuming the worst, I'll take the factors I have (their own words during post-signing interviews, in which they all said that they chose DET because they wanted to play for "Matty P") and give those words appropriate weight. To some, it's far easier to ignore them completely.

When did I take Patricia's side in the Slay situation? I said they were both at fault: Patricia's comments were unnecessary, and Slay - instead of waiting for two years - should've approached him sooner to clear the air. I also think these "tough guy" football players should have thicker skin than "words mean, words hurt", but ultimately said that Patricia was in the wrong.

"Losing in an effort to attain more valuable draft capital" is a strategy that many teams across many sports attempt, which is why those leagues have a draft lottery. The NFL does not. The difference in value between a top 5 pick and a mid-1st round pick is an additional 1st round pick. I'd much rather finish with 4 wins and gain that value than finish with 7 wins and still accomplish nothing. If limping their way to 7 wins makes an organization feel great about themselves, they're doomed regardless.

Again, reasonable people can disagree.

Edited November 28, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[diehardlionfan]

11 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Most organizations would not fire a head coach after a second year in which their best player missed the majority of the season, especially when, before that player's injury, the team was "on the right track" (according to even negative fans).

You have a short memory. There have been plenty of coaches fired early. George Allen got canned after two pre season games. Pete McCulley a handful of games. Shurmur, Kitchens, McDaniels, Holtz and I could go on.

They might not have lost their starting QB but injuries happen in football every year. I don’t think it’s unfair to hold Quinn and Patricia accountable for not having a backup good enough to win one or two of the remaining games. Mitigation, depth etc. are all part of the game and having a competent backup at all positions is required in today’s NFL. 

 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

4 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

You have a short memory. There have been plenty of coaches fired early. George Allen got canned after two pre season games. Pete McCulley a handful of games. Shurmur, Kitchens, McDaniels, Holtz and I could go on.

There have been 503 head coaches in NFL history. You listed... 6. "Plenty of coaches fired early" doesn't dispute the claim that most organizations tend to give head coaches more than two years, especially when their best player is injured for the majority of the second.

Edited November 28, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[candyman93]

It’s not a terrible idea to get rid of coaches quick. Getting rid of Hue Jackson and Freddie Kitchens got Cleveland Kevin Stefanski and he’s been a God send.

 

Now Hue and Freddie were exceptionally bad, so that’s a very rare scenario.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

15 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

It’s not a terrible idea to get rid of coaches quick. Getting rid of Hue Jackson and Freddie Kitchens got Cleveland Kevin Stefanski and he’s been a God send.

 

Now Hue and Freddie were exceptionally bad, so that’s a very rare scenario.

Yep, there are absolutely exceptions: Hue's record and McDaniels' destruction of that DEN roster come to mind.

[ET80]

1 hour ago, candyman93 said:

It’s not a terrible idea to get rid of coaches quick. 

And NOT getting rid of a coach quick enough can spell disaster - a team with a prime Deshaun Watson throwing to a prime DeAndre Hopkins with Brandon Brooks blocking up front, and a defense with Jadevion Clowney, AJ Bouye, JJ Watt, Bernardrick McKinney and Zach Cunningham should be a SB favorite. This should have been the 2019 Texans.

Thanks to keeping Bill O'Brien four years too long, this team has basically been disbanded and is staring at a 2-4 year rebuild. 

So, that's what you're looking at by following protocol and giving someone three years - it's just more opportunity for incompetency to rear its ugly head.