Thanksgiving Special - Game 1: Lions (4-6) vs Texans (3-7)

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

5 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

Which part? Patricia being an a-hole or players not liking an a-hole?

 

Do you seriously want this clown as your HC? If so, you’re getting what you deserve with this loser.

The "Patricia being an a-hole" part. I just think you either have access to information that I haven't seen before, or aren't correct.

We've combed over Patricia's personality extensively on the forum, especially as reports surfaced this off-season. A few things became clear: 1) Caldwell was a "nice" coach, and a lot of the players liked playing for him, 2) those players didn't want Caldwell fired, and 3) they didn't want some unproven, inexperienced coach making them work harder than Caldwell had made them work. (This was confirmed by a former player: players were mad that they were being asked to work harder and stay late to watch more film.)

Now, yes, during his first year, Patricia - for whatever reason - didn't get off on the right foot. He showed up late to team meetings and insisted on acting like an accomplished head coach when he wasn't one. (After year one, Patricia admitted that he made a bunch of mistakes in this regard and vowed to change. Many players said that his attitude had improved from year one to year two.) 

There was also the dust-up with Slay, which can be summarized as this: Slay was getting beat by Hopkins during joint pre-season practices, Slay proceeded to send a social media message praising Hopkins, Patricia saw the message and asked Slay if he wanted to "suck" Hopkins' "male body part". (Patricia was basically saying "why are you sucking up to the guy that keeps beating you?") This made Slay angry, mainly because he took it literally, but he didn't approach Patricia about what was said for two years. When he did, Patricia stated that he didn't mean offense and apologized.

I have to ask: if "Patricia is just an a-hole 24/7", why did so many former players want so badly to come to DET and play for him? The answer is clear: it's not really Patricia, although he made a few mistakes early in his time with the Lions. It's the "culture". Caldwell was nice and easy, and some players definitely didn't want Caldwell replaced by a guy that wanted them to have additional padded practices, run more, run up "the hill", stay late and watch film, etc.

Do I want "this clown" as my HC? Not anymore, but it has nothing to do with his "personality". It's all results. Had they won more games this year, no one would care about his personality; hell, it would probably be considered a strength.

[diehardlionfan]

12 hours ago, candyman93 said:

Read something interesting about Belicheck and why his coaches fail. Bill may be tough as hell on the field and expects a lot, but he builds good relationships with his players as well. It’s what Mike Vrabel is like too.

 

Patricia is just an a-hole 24/7 and players get tired of that. BOB and Josh Mcdaniels were the same way.

I can’t disagree. It seems he walked in believing he was the smartest guy in the room demanding rather than commanding respect. Not a good look for a rookie HC. Lions fans have been apologists for his incompetence only recently, reluctantly accepting that Patricia isn’t an effective HC. 

 

[candyman93]

56 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I have to ask: if "Patricia is just an a-hole 24/7", why did so many former players want so badly to come to DET and play for him?

There’s always a few guys that like a HC no matter what. Hell, I imagine there’s 2-3 guys that secretly liked Bill O’Brien. It means nothing.

 

Patricia reminds me of Eric Mangini. A guy who was universally hated in the Browns lockeroom, but there was still a few guys that liked / defended him.

[candyman93]

4 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

I can’t disagree. It seems he walked in believing he was the smartest guy in the room demanding rather than commanding respect. Not a good look for a rookie HC. Lions fans have been apologists for his incompetence only recently, reluctantly accepting that Patricia isn’t an effective HC. 

 

If you guys had a great or even just good defense, I’d understand defending him to some extent. You don't even have that.

 

Now, if you get a HC that’s an innovative OC, watch out. Go back to the days of letting Stafford sling it. Draft some studs at WR and you’ll be fun and fantastic to watch.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

50 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

There’s always a few guys that like a HC no matter what. Hell, I imagine there’s 2-3 guys that secretly liked Bill O’Brien. It means nothing.

 

Patricia reminds me of Eric Mangini. A guy who was universally hated in the Browns lockeroom, but there was still a few guys that liked / defended him.

This seems like, again, drawing conclusions without the facts to back them up.

So, I ask again: what do you have to support that the majority of Lions' players dislike Patricia, or think that he's an "a-hole 24/7"?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

57 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

Lions fans have been apologists for his incompetence only recently, reluctantly accepting that Patricia isn’t an effective HC. 

I mean, respectfully, this isn't accurate. The few Lions fans that supported Patricia after 2019 did so because he had only completed two years as a coach, and was without his best player (Stafford) for half of his second year. Our stance was that Patricia had failed to get results, but that coaches should have three years to build a roster.

Even you supported Patricia after the Lions almost beat the Chiefs in 2019, saying: "I'm really happy overall with the Lions. We are beginning to see how they’ve constructed the team and it’s paying dividends."

Stafford was injured weeks later, missed the rest of the season and suddenly Patricia was "incompetent" and those that wanted to give him a 3rd year were "apologists". Not apologists, just consistent.

[candyman93]

15 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

This seems like, again, drawing conclusions without the facts to back them up.

So, I ask again: what do you have to support that the majority of Lions' players dislike Patricia, or think that he's an "a-hole 24/7"?

You just already summarized his issues.

 

Obviously, to you it’s not a big deal.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, candyman93 said:

You just already summarized his issues.

 

Obviously, to you it’s not a big deal.

So, a few players (most no longer on the team) not liking a head coach that wanted them to work harder than their previous coach, and to stay late to watch film, is proof that Patricia is "an a-hole 24/7" and is "universally hated in the locker room"? That's what you have to support that claim?

Come on man.

[candyman93]

3 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

So, a few players (most no longer on the team) not liking a head coach that wanted them to work harder than their previous coach, and to stay late to watch film, is proof that Patricia is "an a-hole 24/7" and is "universally hated in the locker room"? That's what you have to support that claim?

Come on man.

If you want to defend him, it’s your prerogative. What exactly would Patricia have had to do to change your stance?
 

Detroit has a terrible culture and has always had a terrible culture. So obviously I guess I do understand the argument that your franchise problems pre-dated Patricia. 

Edited November 27, 2020 by candyman93

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

23 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

If you want to defend him, it’s your prerogative. What exactly would Patricia have had to do to change your stance?
 

Detroit has a terrible culture and has always had a terrible culture. So obviously I guess I do understand the argument that your franchise problems pre-dated Patricia. 

Defend him? I'm asking you to substantiate your baseless claims against him. I have already made clear that I think he should be fired, but based on his inability to win games in his third season, not on some myth about him being an "a-hole 24/7" and him being "universally hated in the locker room".

[ET80]

2 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

There was also the dust-up with Slay, which can be summarized as this: Slay was getting beat by Hopkins during joint pre-season practices, Slay proceeded to send a social media message praising Hopkins, Patricia saw the message and asked Slay if he wanted to "suck" Hopkins' "male body part". (Patricia was basically saying "why are you sucking up to the guy that keeps beating you?") This made Slay angry, mainly because he took it literally, but he didn't approach Patricia about what was said for two years. When he did, Patricia stated that he didn't mean offense and apologized.

Um... that's pretty a-holeish to me. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, ET80 said:

Um... that's pretty a-holeish to me. 

And if we're being honest, the bolded is strictly your interpretation of the event. 

The bold was the interpretation of those that were in the room.

It's absolutely a-holeish, especially from an inexperienced and unproven coach, and to one of the star players on the team. It was also the only (reported) situation of this nature, it occurred at the beginning of his first year, and Patricia apologized to Slay when Slay approached him to clear the air. Still a-holeish, but definitely not proof of Patricia being an "a-hole 24/7" and "universally hated in the locker room".

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

The bold was the interpretation of those that were in the room.

Yeah, I retracted that after reading everything.

3 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

It's absolutely a-holeish, especially from an inexperienced and unproven coach, and to one of the star players on the team. It was also the only (reported) situation of this nature, it occurred at the beginning of his first year, and Patricia apologized to Slay when Slay approached him to clear the air. Still a-holeish, but definitely not proof of Patricia being an "a-hole 24/7" and "universally hated in the locker room".

There is a saying - where there's smoke, there's fire. This is the story we've heard, what else is bound to bubble up?

Nobody really knew how much Bill O'Brien was hated... Until he was fired. Once that was gone, the stories of how he'd demean everyone, how he'd fire people by saying "GET THE F*** OUT OF MY BUILDING" and basically built up a toxic culture all came out.

I'd surmise we'll hear more stories such as this once Patricia is gone. The tea starts to spill once the pink slips are handed out.

[Kip Smithers]

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

He's always been good. He was never healthy, that's his issue.

Going to be interesting to see what his market looks like this off-season.

Yeah I’m aware of that. Glad he’s healthy because he’s a big play waiting to happen. Silky route runner as well

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

22 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Yeah, I retracted that after reading everything.

There is a saying - where there's smoke, there's fire. This is the story we've heard, what else is bound to bubble up?

Nobody really knew how much Bill O'Brien was hated... Until he was fired. Once that was gone, the stories of how he'd demean everyone, how he'd fire people by saying "GET THE F*** OUT OF MY BUILDING" and basically built up a toxic culture all came out.

I'd surmise we'll hear more stories such as this once Patricia is gone. The tea starts to spill once the pink slips are handed out.

Sure, there might be something else there. Something we don't know about right now. Are we at the point where we just say "there was one thing, so there's probably more, so the guy has got to be an a-hole 24/7 and universally hated"? I really hope not... I hope, as fans, we're more reasonable than that.

One thing we do have is the purging of the group of players that hated Patricia (Quin, Slay and Diggs being the primary members), which gave those players a chance to speak out when they left. They did just that. The Slay story is what came of it, and not much else.

(We also have accounts from other players that were surprised that some had a problem with working hard and staying late to study film.)

When you watch the videos of newly signed former NE players, they all say the same thing: they chose Detroit because they wanted to play for "Matty P". We shouldn't ignore that and just assume the worst because the guy isn't winning games.

Edited November 27, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway