Defense Discussion [2017]

[pollino14]

Do you guys think this a SB caliber defense?? To be honest, it has me real worried.

1. I think we're expecting quite a leap from Lowry and Clark. Which they might very well preform, but they're very young. Especially Clark, next year could be his year.

2. I'm not thrilled at our lack of depth at OLB. Perry and Clay have been nicked up throughout their careers. We're going to rely on Fackrell and Elliott quite a bit this year, which I'm not confident in. I was shocked we didn't resign Jones or Peppers.

3. Did we improve enough at CB?? House will be fine, I'm not too worried about him. Aside from him, we're going to need at least two of Randall, Rollins, Guenther and King to play average ball, and I'm not sure that is going to happen this year.

The only group I have confidence in is our safeties. 

 

[packfanfb]

38 minutes ago, pollino14 said:

Do you guys think this a SB caliber defense?? To be honest, it has me real worried.

1. I think we're expecting quite a leap from Lowry and Clark. Which they might very well preform, but they're very young. Especially Clark, next year could be his year.

2. I'm not thrilled at our lack of depth at OLB. Perry and Clay have been nicked up throughout their careers. We're going to rely on Fackrell and Elliott quite a bit this year, which I'm not confident in. I was shocked we didn't resign Jones or Peppers.

3. Did we improve enough at CB?? House will be fine, I'm not too worried about him. Aside from him, we're going to need at least two of Randall, Rollins, Guenther and King to play average ball, and I'm not sure that is going to happen this year.

The only group I have confidence in is our safeties. 

 

Do I think it's a SB caliber defense? No, not even close. Do I think this defense can make it to the SB? Maybe, because we have the best QB in football who can probably carry us like he did last year so if our defense just plays any sort of competent, it might be enough. The defense isnt far off, and it's just disappointing TT didn't focus on helping the defense like he did with some of the moves on offense. Basically, I think we are still one starting CB and a legitimate No. 3 OLB away from having a reliable D. IMO, TT left some holes there that could have been filled with a few FAs but instead we are gambling on the young guys again, i.e. Fackrell, Randall, Rollins, etc. Here's hoping they surprise us all in a good way.

[pollino14]

24 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Do I think it's a SB caliber defense? No, not even close. Do I think this defense can make it to the SB? Maybe, because we have the best QB in football who can probably carry us like he did last year so if our defense just plays any sort of competent, it might be enough. The defense isnt far off, and it's just disappointing TT didn't focus on helping the defense like he did with some of the moves on offense. Basically, I think we are still one starting CB and a legitimate No. 3 OLB away from having a reliable D. IMO, TT left some holes there that could have been filled with a few FAs but instead we are gambling on the young guys again, i.e. Fackrell, Randall, Rollins, etc. Here's hoping they surprise us all in a good way.

I think it's going to come down on our young players as well.We need another above average or two players on D. Randall, Rollins, Clark, King, Ryan, Fackrell, Lowry; a combo of them need to be players THIS year. Either that , or the ball needs to bounce our way and force a bunch of turnovers. I too wish we had a more proven commodity on D.

[PackyAttacky]

We dont need a Superbowl caliber defense, we need a defense that gets a few stops a game and allows Rodgers more chances to win. A couple of teams that have more D than O such as Denver our D need to win those games, but we are going up against a ton of offensive superpowers New Orleans, Dallas, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Seattle, Cincy. Its not going to look pretty in those games and will be tough to tell if they have improved or not.

[spilltray]

1 hour ago, pollino14 said:

Do you guys think this a SB caliber defense?? To be honest, it has me real worried.

1. I think we're expecting quite a leap from Lowry and Clark. Which they might very well preform, but they're very young. Especially Clark, next year could be his year.

2. I'm not thrilled at our lack of depth at OLB. Perry and Clay have been nicked up throughout their careers. We're going to rely on Fackrell and Elliott quite a bit this year, which I'm not confident in. I was shocked we didn't resign Jones or Peppers.

3. Did we improve enough at CB?? House will be fine, I'm not too worried about him. Aside from him, we're going to need at least two of Randall, Rollins, Guenther and King to play average ball, and I'm not sure that is going to happen this year.

The only group I have confidence in is our safeties. 

 

What is a "super bowl caliber defense"? Yes this defense is good enough for this team to make the SB if the offense plays well too.

1. We are expecting development for sure, but simply a solid step from what they showed last year will be enough.

2. They have a 3rd and 4th round pick at backup OLB. Having guys like Datone Jones and Julius Peppers as depth is a ridiculous expectation to have.

3. Randall and Rollins will both be solid if healthy. You are talking CBs who were playing on bad legs last year. They may not end up being #1 type CBs but House will get first shot at that role. King will take his lumps but I think he's going to work out well long term. There really isn't more that could have been done without overpaying.

[Shanedorf]

13 minutes ago, spilltray said:

What is a "super bowl caliber defense"?

Despite all of the challenges in 2016, the Packers defense gave up fewer points than the Falcons, who were in fact a Super Bowl defense

The Packers defense also finished ahead of the ATL defense in several other key categories. With better health, GB will be better on that side of the ball

Linked below is the (dour) preseason game review from Barancyzk at PackersNews and he hits on a topic we brought up earlier-the concept of manufacturing pressure through scheme

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/baranczyk/2017/08/11/analysis-packers-outside-pass-rush-still-looks-shaky/557370001/

"Defensive coordinator Dom Capers showed against Philadelphia that he’s planning on manufacturing a rush with blitzes and scheme.

Capers sent several combinations of cornerbacks, safeties and linebackers Thursday night. Nickel cornerback Damarious Randall set up the Packers’ lone sack (Perry) by chasing quarterback Carson Wentz off his spot.

On another rush Capers even tried something that might have been a first: Matthews lined up on the inside, not standing as he’s often done in the past but with his hand on the ground. On that play he came free for shot at Wentz, but the quarterback slipped out of the potential sack."

This pressure can come from Randall in the slot and Josh Jones and Burnett and others hanging around the LOS

 

[packfanfb]

1 hour ago, spilltray said:

What is a "super bowl caliber defense"?

I'll take a quick stab at this: 

A super-bowl caliber defense is one that does NOT: 

1. Give up 200 yards rushing to a now-irrelevant QB who literally became relevant because of his game(s) against your defense; 

2. Give up 3 straight TD's to a hap-less offense like Seattle in the NFCCG when our offense is struggling and needs to rely on the D for once to play a full 60-minute game; 

3. Automatically lose the game if we lose the coin toss in OT because it's an automatic TD for the opposing team while ARod has to stand on the sideline and watch without even getting a chance. See Seattle 2014 and Arizona 2015.

4. Give up 40+ points to ANY team EVER in the postseason. See Arizona 2009, SF 2011 and Atlanta 2016.  

I won't even talk about some of the regular season debacles. But, at the very least, if (1) we could just cut down on some of the border-line record-setting days that opposing offenses have against us in big games, and (2) actually stop a team's offense in the 4th quarter/OT when it matters, that would go a long way.

[pollino14]

2 hours ago, spilltray said:

What is a "super bowl caliber defense"? Yes this defense is good enough for this team to make the SB if the offense plays well too.

1. We are expecting development for sure, but simply a solid step from what they showed last year will be enough.

2. They have a 3rd and 4th round pick at backup OLB. Having guys like Datone Jones and Julius Peppers as depth is a ridiculous expectation to have.

3. Randall and Rollins will both be solid if healthy. You are talking CBs who were playing on bad legs last year. They may not end up being #1 type CBs but House will get first shot at that role. King will take his lumps but I think he's going to work out well long term. There really isn't more that could have been done without overpaying.

Do I really need to define what a " Super Bowl caliber defense" is? Seems pretty petty. We need a quality defense. Better?

The same rhetoric is said every year. We think all of our young players is going to take the next step and become significant players and our D is good enough because " With Aaron Rodgers we're always SB contenders"

The past how many years have proven that we need more than Aaron Rodgers, We need a defense who can get stops.

As it stands right now, they're not good enough and will need multiple young players to play significant roles well.

[Gopackgonerd]

Will this defense be Super Bowl Cailber? Probably Not. Will this defense be better than last year? Imo Yes.

The only significant losses were Peppers and Shields on the defense, and Shields didn't play past the first game last year. Was Datone Jones really a big loss?

Where we are improved:

Corner depth - King and House gave the group plenty depth here, and Randall and Rollins were banged up most of the year. Our starting Corner in the NFC Championship was Gunter, he's now number 5 on the depth chart if everyones healthy above him.

Clark and Lowery taking big steps - I think these guys have a good chance to be as good as Daniels in the near future, and it seems like these guys took huge steps from rook to year 2.

Saftey Depth -  HaHa, Burnett, Jones, Brice, Evans, need I say more?

Finally guys like Blake Martinez and Joe Thomas must have gotten better.

Honestly the only weak spot like everyone keeps bringing up here is backup OLB, if Elliot/Fackrell, Biegel, Gilbert can come in and play well from time to time I don't see why we can't be a better overall defense from last year.

 

 

[skibrett15]

3 hours ago, pollino14 said:

As it stands right now, they're not good enough and will need multiple young players to play significant roles well

Pretty much.  Either we are getting exclusively vintage Rodgers in December/January/Feb, or we lose.

This defense is much better than what we had last season though given that we have 2 new players at a position group that was the worst in the NFL.  Once we lose one of Clay/Perry, the D might be just slightly better.  All of the depth at OLB is gone.

The optimistic view is that Fackrell can be better than Peppers.  The pessimistic view is that he's worse than Jones and there's also no Peppers.  

This team has needed a change of philosophy and a new DC since the Kaepernick 200 yard rushing game.  It also needs more talented players.  We keep viewing it as an either or proposition... is it Capers or TT or McCarthy? But in reality it's all of them failing independently.

1 hour ago, Gopackgonerd said:

Clark and Lowry taking big steps

 

1 hour ago, Gopackgonerd said:

Finally guys like Blake Martinez and Joe Thomas must have gotten better.

These are all assumptions and speculation.  I think independently they are fair and good assumptions, but I do think it's overly optimistic to expect Lowry AND Clark AND Blake AND Thomas to improve.  I think it's optimistic to assume JT is going to improve even a little bit.  He's a high variance player with some big plays and some awful ones.  Martinez can't be much worse than he was last year.

[Gopackgonerd]

44 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

Pretty much.  Either we are getting exclusively vintage Rodgers in December/January/Feb, or we lose.

This defense is much better than what we had last season though given that we have 2 new players at a position group that was the worst in the NFL.  Once we lose one of Clay/Perry, the D might be just slightly better.  All of the depth at OLB is gone.

The optimistic view is that Fackrell can be better than Peppers.  The pessimistic view is that he's worse than Jones and there's also no Peppers.  

This team has needed a change of philosophy and a new DC since the Kaepernick 200 yard rushing game.  It also needs more talented players.  We keep viewing it as an either or proposition... is it Capers or TT or McCarthy? But in reality it's all of them failing independently.

 

These are all assumptions and speculation.  I think independently they are fair and good assumptions, but I do think it's overly optimistic to expect Lowry AND Clark AND Blake AND Thomas to improve.  I think it's optimistic to assume JT is going to improve even a little bit.  He's a high variance player with some big plays and some awful ones.  Martinez can't be much worse than he was last year.  He was decidedly better as a rookie.

Ya I'm very optimistic to a fault lol, I'm no coach or scout so its all assumptions/speculation/from what us fans can see with our own eyes. Clark and Lowrey I'm more confident in at this point to really contribute this year though. And I think Thomas has the chance to get even more playing time than the dime LB. 

[spilltray]

I think they can be a top 1/3 defense. I think that is enough to be "Super Bowl caliber", as long as the offense plays decent.

Do I think they are going to be a top 3 elite unit? No, but as long as they are solid, it's definitely good enough.

[PackyAttacky]

1 hour ago, skibrett15 said:

Pretty much.  Either we are getting exclusively vintage Rodgers in December/January/Feb, or we lose.

This defense is much better than what we had last season though given that we have 2 new players at a position group that was the worst in the NFL.  Once we lose one of Clay/Perry, the D might be just slightly better.  All of the depth at OLB is gone.

The optimistic view is that Fackrell can be better than Peppers.  The pessimistic view is that he's worse than Jones and there's also no Peppers.  

This team has needed a change of philosophy and a new DC since the Kaepernick 200 yard rushing game.  It also needs more talented players.  We keep viewing it as an either or proposition... is it Capers or TT or McCarthy? But in reality it's all of them failing independently.

 

These are all assumptions and speculation.  I think independently they are fair and good assumptions, but I do think it's overly optimistic to expect Lowry AND Clark AND Blake AND Thomas to improve.  I think it's optimistic to assume JT is going to improve even a little bit.  He's a high variance player with some big plays and some awful ones.  Martinez can't be much worse than he was last year.  He was decidedly better as a rookie.

In their first test, Clark and Lowry played damn fine. Josh Jones is another one to be excited about. Not sure why you would want Capers gone in your situation, thats on Ted and according to you Ted should be gone cause wheres the talent.

[skibrett15]

8 minutes ago, PackyAttacky said:

Ted and according to you Ted should be gone cause wheres the talent

Don't want to get rid of Ted.  Do want Ted to keep evolving.  You don't get rid of a well above average GM for a few bad drafts and offseasons, especially when recent efforts appear to be getting better.  The talent is low because of failures in the draft in 2013+ 2014 on the defensive side of the ball, followed by failures in 2015 and 2016 to add any free agents to address the failures in 2013+2014.  We only got HHCD in those 2 drafts plus 2 free agency periods.

 

You do get rid of a pretty poor DC after one of the worst playoff defenses of the last 10 years comes up highly short -- whether it's his fault or not, whether it's "fair" or not.  You just do it because there's really no downside to the move.  No DC who comes into this building is gonna put together a worse defensive performance, and there's a really good chance that they turn things around.  

We have plenty of good, younger, more "in-tune" coaches on this team... just let one of them take over for Capers if you're so against a radical scheme change.

Alternatively, bring in some new blood on the defensive side.  Some of this has to be on Capers for not developing the right people on the staff.  How in control even is he of position coaches like Moss/Whitt?  Those seem like McCarthy people more than Capers.

[incognito_man]

This defense is obviously a SB caliber defense today. That's not even questionable. Need to keep a few guys healthy though to remain one when it is critical to be one.