Should Flacco be finished as a starting QB?

[SteelKing728]

Just one more week of Flacco and then he can be finished.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

@RavensTillIDie pretty much nailed it with his post. Flacco isn't finished. His play the last few years has been the result of the Ravens' front office making a concerted effort to not surround him with any talent whatsoever via the draft. Since 2012, here are the day 1 and day 2 draft picks on offense as a whole:

Maxx Williams, Crockett Gillmore, Ronnie Stanley, and Breshad Perriman.

That sucks. Flacco is playing badly, but he's got literally nothing around him to work with.

[Sugashane]

Joe  mid to low end starter IMO. If he has enough talent he can do well, and can make enough plays to get some big wins. But he is not someone wwhho is goian average cast of players to excel around him.

[Soko]

9 hours ago, Darth Pees said:

@RavensTillIDie pretty much nailed it with his post. Flacco isn't finished. His play the last few years has been the result of the Ravens' front office making a concerted effort to not surround him with any talent whatsoever via the draft. Since 2012, here are the day 1 and day 2 draft picks on offense as a whole:

Maxx Williams, Crockett Gillmore, Ronnie Stanley, and Breshad Perriman.

That sucks. Flacco is playing badly, but he's got literally nothing around him to work with.

So he’s playing badly, but has a poor supporting cast.

What then is the excuse that he’s being outplayed by Brian Hoyer, Jacoby Brissett, and Josh McCown? All of whom are playing with bad/new coaches along with supporting casts that are just as bad - if not worse. The only QBs that Flacco is clearly outplaying are Bortles, Kizer, and Glennon. That can’t be all on his team. 

[Danand]

3 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

So he’s playing badly, but has a poor supporting cast.

What then is the excuse that he’s being outplayed by Brian Hoyer, Jacoby Brissett, and Josh McCown? All of whom are playing with bad/new coaches along with supporting casts that are just as bad - if not worse. The only QBs that Flacco is clearly outplaying are Bortles, Kizer, and Glennon. That can’t be all on his team. 

Flacco can elevate his play to a level the other can't, although we have to go back to last year to see it. People also talked about Cam Newton, Le'veon Bell and others who had to play a couple of games to shake their "rust" off after injuries/hold outs. Somehow, that doesn't apply to Flacco. He isn't allowed to serve under the same narrative, he just sucks for some reason.

[Soko]

6 minutes ago, Danand said:

Flacco can elevate his play to a level the other can't, although we have to go back to last year to see it. People also talked about Cam Newton, Le'veon Bell and others who had to play a couple of games to shake their "rust" off after injuries/hold outs. Somehow, that doesn't apply to Flacco. He isn't allowed to serve under the same narrative, he just sucks for some reason.

How much rust does he need to knock off? He’s among the worst in the league right now. Cam and Bell are in their physical primes, weren’t playing as poorly, and very recently displayed elite ability (or at least, the ability they’ve consistently demonstrated throughout their careers) - all things Flacco is not. Since his contract extension, he’s yet to play like a top 10 QB (besides MAYBE his one year with Kubiak). 

The guy’s been sacked just barely worse than league average, his offensive line isn’t playing THAT badly, and despite the popular narrative, his receiving targets are actually better now than they’ve been in awhile (Wallace, Maclin, Watson>Brown, Doss, many TEs). 

[Danand]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

How much rust does he need to knock off? He’s among the worst in the league right now. Cam and Bell are in their physical primes, weren’t playing as poorly, and very recently displayed elite ability (or at least, the ability they’ve consistently demonstrated throughout their careers) - all things Flacco is not. Since his contract extension, he’s yet to play like a top 10 QB (besides MAYBE his one year with Kubiak). 

The guy’s been sacked just barely worse than league average, his offensive line isn’t playing THAT badly, and despite the popular narrative, his receiving targets are actually better now than they’ve been in awhile (Wallace, Maclin, Watson>Brown, Doss, many TEs). 

Here you just proved that your arguments are based off names on the roster and stat sheets, although parts of the offensive line has played better in stretches than expected.

[TheKillerNacho]

Ravens fans can't tell me their offensive supporting cast is any worse than the Jets or Colts, and yet Brissett and McCown have shown flashes of competence this year.

Flacco is simply not a player (at least not anymore) who can elevate play of those around him which is what you need your QB to do if you're paying him a large contract as they are.

[Malik]

5 hours ago, Danand said:

Here you just proved that your arguments are based off names on the roster and stat sheets, although parts of the offensive line has played better in stretches than expected.

How many other offensive lines have you paid attention to so far this season to make an accurate gauge of how well/poorly the Ravens offensive line are playing relative to the rest of the league? Seriously? Every fan of every team always like to think their QB has a uniquely terrible line. 

[Malik]

5 hours ago, Danand said:

Here you just proved that your arguments are based off names on the roster and stat sheets, although parts of the offensive line has played better in stretches than expected.

How many other offensive lines have you paid attention to so far this season to make an accurate gauge of how well/poorly the Ravens offensive line are playing relative to the rest of the league? Seriously? Every fan of every team always like to think their QB has a uniquely terrible line. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

10 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

So he’s playing badly, but has a poor supporting cast.

What then is the excuse that he’s being outplayed by Brian Hoyer, Jacoby Brissett, and Josh McCown? All of whom are playing with bad/new coaches along with supporting casts that are just as bad - if not worse. The only QBs that Flacco is clearly outplaying are Bortles, Kizer, and Glennon. That can’t be all on his team. 

Aside from Flacco's issue, I would invite you to watch a Ravens game and evaluate our offensive scheme, as I think it's (still) one of the worst in the league. I've watched at least 1 Jets, 49ers, and Colts game this year and IMO (so take that for what you will), they have much better coordinators than we do and actually find ways to get people open in the passing game.

Now of course that doesn't excuse the performance of Flacco, but if you're evaluating him based on his stats alone, I will tell you that AT LEAST 4 of his INT's this year have come off of blatantly dropped passes from his WR's, including both in the Chicago game. In fact, here, watch the highlights and see for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oES0FMx3k4Q

EDIT: First INT is at 59 seconds. The 2nd INT is at 4:45

3 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said:

Ravens fans can't tell me their offensive supporting cast is any worse than the Jets or Colts, and yet Brissett and McCown have shown flashes of competence this year.

Flacco is simply not a player (at least not anymore) who can elevate play of those around him which is what you need your QB to do if you're paying him a large contract as they are.

He's never been that guy. Ever. His contract wasn't about paying him to elevate the play of those around him (at least I hope not), it seemed more of a reward for what he brought the city in 2012 and how he performed in the playoffs. The Ravens had to pay him. There's no way you're letting your Superbowl MVP QB walk out the door and start over after winning the Superbowl.

However, as for the supporting cast argument, I think it goes further than that down into which teams are using their supporting cast better? I'm constantly impressed when watching the Jets and their offensive scheme because they seem to know how to design passing plays to get guys open and move the ball. Same with the Colts, even though Brissett is terrible. The Ravens, on the other hand, have no idea what they're doing. I extended an invite to Ying to watch a Ravens game and evaluate, and I'll do the same for you. Maybe I'm just crazy, who knows.

[Danand]

1 hour ago, Malik said:

How many other offensive lines have you paid attention to so far this season to make an accurate gauge of how well/poorly the Ravens offensive line are playing relative to the rest of the league? Seriously? Every fan of every team always like to think their QB has a uniquely terrible line. 

I have a gamepass, I watch a surprisingly number of games. This is also why I have emphasized several times, that most of the quarterbacks in the league have troubles when their oline struggles.

Now, Eagles have been the posterboy for an offensive line from the games I have seen, but you haven't seen me throw Wentz name around when questioning other quarterbacks ability, because that guy has played really well even when he has had to escape from the pocket or make throws with pressure in his face. Other quarterbacks I have seen this year, has made the exact same "mistakes/bad throws" as Flacco has, and this is usually because no one is open or their rythm is off or the receiver doesn't make the play.

Taking the Ravens Steelers game is a great example of, how Ravens might have decent oline ratings, but there is more to it. When going into max protection and having 7 guys pass protect, and they get beat by 4 rushing players, the its not a fast sack, but it is still pressure in a situation, where Flacco can't throw the ball anywhere or a coverage breaks down.

[Soko]

3 hours ago, Darth Pees said:

Aside from Flacco's issue, I would invite you to watch a Ravens game and evaluate our offensive scheme, as I think it's (still) one of the worst in the league. I've watched at least 1 Jets, 49ers, and Colts game this year and IMO (so take that for what you will), they have much better coordinators than we do and actually find ways to get people open in the passing game.

Now of course that doesn't excuse the performance of Flacco, but if you're evaluating him based on his stats alone, I will tell you that AT LEAST 4 of his INT's this year have come off of blatantly dropped passes from his WR's, including both in the Chicago game. In fact, here, watch the highlights and see for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oES0FMx3k4Q

EDIT: First INT is at 59 seconds. The 2nd INT is at 4:45

I haven’t watched every Ravens game either, only a few. From what I’ve seen, I think Shanahan is clearly a head above the rest in this discussion in terms of being a good OC, but the Jets and Colts, I’m not so sure. Still, the fact that Flacco (and the Ravens) are even in the discussion with these other QBs (and their respective teams), is eye opening. I’d still take Flacco over McCown, Hoyer, or Brissett (for this season at least), but 5 years ago, it would be laughable to think Flacco would be playing to the level of these QBs. 

I’m not blaming Flacco for all the picks this year, but I am keeping in mind his tendency to be loose with the ball under this new contract. 

As I said on page 1, he’s not in a favorable scenario, but I don’t think that that completely excuses his play. 

EDIT: Appreciate insight that you provided from watching every game, because I haven’t. I think discussions are a lot better that way.

[Malfatron]

He will have a record-breaking game against Dom Capers defense this year, and everyone will be ready to anoint him again.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

I haven’t watched every Ravens game either, only a few. From what I’ve seen, I think Shanahan is clearly a head above the rest in this discussion in terms of being a good OC, but the Jets and Colts, I’m not so sure. Still, the fact that Flacco (and the Ravens) are even in the discussion with these other QBs (and their respective teams), is eye opening. I’d still take Flacco over McCown, Hoyer, or Brissett (for this season at least), but 5 years ago, it would be laughable to think Flacco would be playing to the level of these QBs. 

I’m not blaming Flacco for all the picks this year, but I am keeping in mind his tendency to be loose with the ball under this new contract. 

As I said on page 1, he’s not in a favorable scenario, but I don’t think that that completely excuses his play. 

EDIT: Appreciate insight that you provided from watching every game, because I haven’t. I think discussions are a lot better that way.

Simply, and finally, I think the situation is very complex and fluid. It's not a one person thing and it's not a "yes or no" situation. There's a lot of moving parts and a lot of blame to go around. I guess if I were to rank the problems on our offense, it would go:

1. Injuries

2. Lack of talent

3. Scheme

4. Flacco's actual ability to be good at the QB position

I just think that he's being put in a very poor position in all facets, from draft day to opening day, and it's resulting in what you see on the field. I don't know how the Jets are managing to put up the yards and production they are, and same thing with teams like Minnesota with Keenum, Jacksonville with Bortles, etc., and honestly I would love to find out, because I want to know what Baltimore is doing wrong that these other teams with clearly inferior QB's are doing right.