JohnChimpo Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 9 minutes ago, NeptunePenguins said: Now serious post time, I have no real way to really rank Elway at all. He is likely the one player I just wouldn't know where to rank. I did make this thread to spark discussion in a way, and I always see some people be like "He is BEAST QB of All-Time" and "He ain't even a Hall of Famer dude, he like original Eli Manning!". I am guessing it is likely between the two extremes. His numbers look crappy, especially at the start of his career, but he did make a bunch of Super Bowls, but those AFC teams in the late 80s weren't exactly juggernauts yeah. Meanwhile his two victories did come from a strong supporting cast, but most QBs do have strong supporting casts when they win the big one. This thread was also kind of making fun of a take somehow had about Jim Carrey and the Sonic movie yeah, but that's another thing. He is a definite hall of famer. Far better than just borderline. He played with very few great players in the 80s. Yeah he had a great team around him when they won those 2, but the AFC had lost 13 Super Bowls in a row prior to that. Also, the team they beat to break the streak had Favre in his prime, Reggie White, and some other really good players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) On 3/18/2021 at 9:24 PM, NeptunePenguins said: Now serious post time, I have no real way to really rank Elway at all. He is likely the one player I just wouldn't know where to rank. I did make this thread to spark discussion in a way, and I always see some people be like "He is BEAST QB of All-Time" and "He ain't even a Hall of Famer dude, he like original Eli Manning!". I am guessing it is likely between the two extremes. His numbers look crappy, especially at the start of his career, but he did make a bunch of Super Bowls, but those AFC teams in the late 80s weren't exactly juggernauts yeah. Meanwhile his two victories did come from a strong supporting cast, but most QBs do have strong supporting casts when they win the big one. This thread was also kind of making fun of a take somehow had about Jim Carrey and the Sonic movie yeah, but that's another thing. He carried a lot of average teams to the Super Bowl. As a Packers fan, I respect the hell out of the player. Easily, top 10 QB all-time for me. Too bad his first title was against the Packers—when he mostly handed off to TD. Edited March 23, 2021 by TheEagle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) I 'm not sure where the Denver sucked in the late 80s and Elway carried them narrative comes from. 1986 11-5 with a Top 10 offense (6 15) and a just outside the top 10 defense. (15 9) They beat the also 11-5 Patriots in Denver and upset the 12-4 Browns in Cleveland with The Drive 1987 8-3-1 in real games. Top 5 offense (4 2) and top 10 D (7 9). They beat a 7-5 Oilers team in Denver and beat the 8-4 Browns also at home on The Fumble. 1989 They were 11-5 again and probably had the best D in the league at 1 3. Their offense was ranked 8 15 in a 28 team league. They beat the 9-7 Steelers and the 9-6-1 Browns at home. I don't exactly see the 2007/2011 Giants when I look at those Broncos. Edited March 24, 2021 by SkippyX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 What makes Elway a legend: He was the prospect. Like screw Manning, or Luck, or Lawrence. This was the can't miss guy. Rocket arm Crazy mobility Leadership out the wazoo He was Mr. Clutch Comeback 40 regular season game winning drives and 6 more in the playoffs. One of those of course, was The Drive which did for Elway what The Catch did for Montana. Marino had him by 7 in the regular season but only had 4 in the playoffs. He was also a flashy running QB. He did not run like Cunningham but he was always doing it to buy time on a deep ball or to run for 4 yards on 3rd and 3. Cunningham also had zero playoff success until 1992 Remember that Steve Young did not really have the opportunity to run much with SF until he started playing full time in 1991. No one cared that he ran a bunch in Tampa Then as the other guys from 1983 or so were fading, Shanahan comes along and Elway is revitalized in that offense and he wins 2 Super Bowls. That's 5 Super Bowls before Brady even joined the league. Guys like Montana had to share credit with other superstars like Rice and Lott and even Walsh. Elway was clearly top billing and his cast of very good supporting characters did not come close until Sharpe, TD, and co in his last few years. So all in all its a story weaved from expectations, drama, performance, playoffs, and highlights that probably exceeds his actual status in that top 10 range QBs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 One other thing about Elway. Almost everyone liked him (ok, not Raiders, Chiefs, Chargers, and Seahawks fans) Montana was the best QB, but kinda dorky awkward. Marino was the good looking guy with charisma but he was a lead by yelling at people kind of player. (Rivers did this too) Kelly was the sportswriters best buddy bit he did not have that Elway presence. I loved Randall Cunningham but he came off as goofy and more than a bit in love with his celebrity. McMahon had a bit of that Elway magic, but he was a bit too rebel, a bit too weird, and he lasted a very short time. He just looked the part of the Superstar Gunslinger QB. That helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 In the 80s on the East Coast you watched your team at 1 and then Elway at 4 on most weeks. Or on MNF or the new SNF With blackouts I might watch 13 Eagles games and 10 Broncos games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 3 hours ago, SkippyX said: I 'm not sure where the Denver sucked in the late 80s and Elway carried them narrative comes from. 1986 11-5 with a Top 10 offense (6 15) and a just outside the top 10 defense. (15 9) They beat the also 11-5 Patriots in Denver and upset the 12-4 Browns in Cleveland with The Drive 1987 8-3-1 in real games. Top 5 offense (4 2) and top 10 D (7 9). They beat a 7-5 Oilers team in Denver and beat the 8-4 Browns also at home on The Fumble. 1989 They were 11-5 again and probably had the best D in the league at 1 3. Their offense was ranked 8 15 in a 28 team league. They beat the 9-7 Steelers and the 9-6-1 Browns at home. I don't exactly see the 2007/2011 Giants when I look at those Broncos. Top 10 offense. Name the best skill position player he had on those teams? Sammy Winder? Vance Johnson? 14-7 in the playoffs in his career. Several clutch drives/plays. 9 time Pro Bowler. Started in 5 Super Bowls. Can’t look at the stats compared to today’s game. The game was different. The dude was great. As a Packers fan, I think he was very similar to Favre. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, TheEagle said: Top 10 offense. Name the best skill position player he had on those teams? Sammy Winder? Vance Johnson? 14-7 in the playoffs in his career. Several clutch drives/plays. 9 time Pro Bowler. Started in 5 Super Bowls. Can’t look at the stats compared to today’s game. The game was different. The dude was great. As a Packers fan, I think he was very similar to Favre. I'm not sure you read the rest of my posts where I go into what made him great. It does not matter if he had great players on offense instead of good ones all over. The 1989 team ran the ball 554 times and Elway completed 256 passes. You expecting pro bowl seasons from pass catchers? They had the best defense. Why not run a bunch? Elway was 14th, 18th, and 20th in completion % on those first 3 Super Bowl teams. Was that Vance Johnson's fault? He beat inferior teams in the playoffs in an inferior conference and he beat a team with a better record than his team once in the playoffs in the 80's. Then he won back to back on a team loaded with HoF Davis, and Sharpe, and HoVG Rod Smith and a stud O-line. (in a much improved conference) He was not at all similar to Favre. I watched at least 50 games from each guy. Favre was a Marino that won (Reggie helped for sure) Favre set all the passing records. Favre was more mobile than Marino but he was not Elway mobile Elway was maybe the 10th to 12th best pure passer in the 80s (not ability, but numbers and rating) Elway became more of the precision passer type in his last 3 years, but he was pretty old then and not setting season records. Edited March 24, 2021 by SkippyX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Jim Carrey isn't funny, and Elway was one of the most overrated QBs in the league's history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravity Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) “John Elway in the 80s was the Jim Carrey of football” He was though! 😂 Edited March 25, 2021 by Gravity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7DnBrnc53 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 On 3/24/2021 at 12:59 AM, SkippyX said: The 1989 team ran the ball 554 times and Elway completed 256 passes. You expecting pro bowl seasons from pass catchers? They had the best defense. Why not run a bunch? Elway was 14th, 18th, and 20th in completion % on those first 3 Super Bowl teams. Was that Vance Johnson's fault? No, it was Dan Reeves' fault. He ran an antiquated offensive system where protection was the priority, not attacking a defense. Sometimes, Elway would have routes with only three receivers going out in them. Ex-Bronco WR Steve Watson called it (the old Dallas offense) the Edsel system. Look at Elway's stats in 1993 (his first year with his old college coach Jim Fassel. Elway put up better numbers with him in college), and compare them with his stats under Reeves. Also, you mentioned their 1986 and 87 defenses. The 87 defense forced a boatload of turnovers. However, they were an undersized smoke and mirror unit that didn't succeed when they didn't force turnovers (look at the second half of the AFC Title Game and the Super Bowl). The year before, they were better because they still had four holdovers from the Orange Crush, but it was still a finesse unit (someone told me that their sack totals decreased later in the year when Joe Collier stopped stunting. They couldn't beat you one on one up front). The 89 defense was better than those units, but the best defenses Elway ever had were in 1991 and 92 (I would take them even over their 1996-98 units). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 I'm not blaming Elway for any of that, just saying you can't say his receivers were all bad because they did not get targets that guys got on other teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluhartz Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 On 3/18/2021 at 8:36 AM, Nut said: Nah, Moon and Namath are. I agree with Namath, but not Moon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamblinMan99 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Ok, this is really dumb. Oh, and Jim Carrey is a complete moron by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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