Raiders sign Karl Joseph

[Jeremy408]

11 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I don't care to continue going back and forth, I hope he is starting FS in single high just so we can see what happens.

That’s all I’m saying

[NYRaider]

Just now, Jeremy408 said:

That’s all I’m saying

Gruden's lack of interest in adding a quality FS has been interesting though. In year 1 we had Reggie Nelson, in year 2/3 we had Erik Harris, and in year 4 we'll likely have Karl Joseph. 

[Jeremy408]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

Gruden's lack of interest in adding a quality FS has been interesting though. In year 1 we had Reggie Nelson, in year 2/3 we had Erik Harris, and in year 4 we'll likely have Karl Joseph. 

I think the whole free safety thing before was because Paul gunther likes old safeties with experience over actual talent and athleticism. 

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think the whole free safety thing before was because Paul gunther likes old safeties with experience over actual talent and athleticism. 

We've regularly scrapped the bottom of the barrel when it comes to FS. I think Gruden was banking on Abram actually being good and him being horrible threw a wrench in things. 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

We've regularly scrapped the bottom of the barrel when it comes to FS. I think Gruden was banking on Abram actually being good and him being horrible threw a wrench in things. 

He failed to acknowledge that Paul Gunther was garbage for years. You can see that in the lack of development of all players who were drafted by him.

I always felt like Karl Joseph was a scapegoat Because when Paul Gunther first got there were reports that the staff was saying he he wasn't a good fit for the scheme(which it turns out that no one is a fit for his so-called scheme)

[NYRaider]

23 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

He failed to acknowledge that Paul Gunther was garbage for years. You can see that in the lack of development of all players who were drafted by him.

I always felt like Karl Joseph was a scapegoat Because when Paul Gunther first got there were reports that the staff was saying he he wasn't a good fit for the scheme(which it turns out that no one is a fit for his so-called scheme)

The fact that Gruden and Mayock put all of their faith into Guenther and made personnel decisions to "fit his scheme" puts them just as much at fault, imo. 

When Gruden and Guenther arrived they signed Marcus Gilchrist to replace Joseph in 2018 and then drafted Abram to replace him in 2019. Guenther's scheme supposedly didn't work with smaller safeties but Abram is pretty small and we spent a first round pick on him. 

If anything I think Guenther was more so the scape goat because every bad personnel decision we've made has come back too "we did it because of Guenther's scheme." 

Edited April 10, 2021 by NYRaider

[Jeremy408]

8 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

The fact that Gruden and Mayock put all of their faith into Guenther and made personnel decisions to "fit his scheme" puts them just at much at fault, imo. 

When Gruden and Guenther arrived they signed Marcus Gilchrist to replace Joseph in 2018 and then drafted Abram to replace him in 2019. Guenther's scheme supposedly didn't work with smaller safeties but Abram is pretty small and we spent a first round pick on him. 

If anything I think Guenther was more so the scape goat because every bad personnel decision we've made has come back too "we did it because of Guenther's scheme." 

I 1000% agree. That's my take actually is that it can all be chalked up to that. They put their trust in somebody with no credentials in terms of building a defense from scratch. When he says take a free safety and turn him into a slot corner he Doesn't have the track record to make a decision like that. Or starting Marcus Gilchrist or Erik Harris. Or getting to press corners only to not have them played press for most of the season. Or get rid of the veteran safety you signed last year in free agency and then let him go Before the season starts in a Covid year. And also it was a stupid idea to get rid of the veteran corner just because you saw your rookie corner look good with no pads on. 

They have to answer for that. It is their fault but the reason(Not an excuse) Was that it was supposed to fit the scheme of A DC With no track record of personal success in terms of building a defense.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Jeremy408

[NYRaider]

13 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I 1000% agree. That's my take actually is that it can all be chalked up to that. They put their trust in somebody with no credentials in terms of building a defense from scratch. When he says take a free safety and turn him into a slot corner he Doesn't have the track record to make a decision like that. Or starting Marcus Gilchrist or Erik Harris. Or getting to press corners only to not have them played press for most of the season. Or get rid of the veteran safety you signed last year in free agency and then let him go Before the season starts in a Covid year. And also it was a stupid idea to get rid of the veteran corner just because you saw your rookie corner look good with no pads on. 

They have to answer for that. It is their fault but the reason(Not an excuse) Was that it was supposed to fit the scheme of A DC With no track record of personal success in terms of building a defense.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter who your coordinator is or what scheme that they use if you lack talent. As I mentioned earlier Robert Saleh is viewed as a great defensive mind and the 49ers had a great defense in 1/4 years he was there. In the other 3 years his defenses gave up 25.1 ppg, for comparison KNJ's defenses gave up 24.1 ppg in his 3 years here. 

Guenther's biggest down falls were: 1) a lack of talent across the board defensively and 2) an overly complicated scheme. He had a decent amount of success in Cincinnati but he also had a lot of good players at all 3 levels. Zimmer uses essentially the same scheme and has had success in Minnesota using it, the Vikings have just had a lot more talent the we have. In 2019 they had a top 5 defense using an almost identical scheme the difference was they had one of the best pass rushes in the league as well as two very good safeties in Smith/Harris, good LB's in Hendricks/Barr, and good CB's in Rhodes/Waynes. 

[Jeremy408]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

At the end of the day it doesn't matter who your coordinator is or what scheme that they use if you lack talent. As I mentioned earlier Robert Saleh is viewed as a great defensive mind and the 49ers had a great defense in 1/4 years he was there. In the other 3 years his defenses gave up 25.1 ppg, for comparison KNJ's defenses gave up 24.1 ppg in his 3 years here. 

Guenther's biggest down falls were: 1) a lack of talent across the board defensively and 2) an overly complicated scheme. He had a decent amount of success in Cincinnati but he also had a lot of good players at all 3 levels. Zimmer uses essentially the same scheme and has had success in Minnesota using it, the Vikings have just had a lot more talent the we have. In 2019 they had a top 5 defense using an almost identical scheme the difference was they had one of the best pass rushes in the league as well as two very good safeties in Smith/Harris, good LB's in Hendricks/Barr, and good CB's in Rhodes/Waynes. 

 

I agree with the Robert Saleh comment

My problem with the lack of talent argument with Gunther is that we got him every one he wanted and invested money and draft picks into his "vision". If he can build a defense he is without excuse. The problem is that he can't(And Gruden Should've known that). The other thing that's key is at the scheme that he's running isn't even his scheme it's Mike Zimmer scheme. It's one thing to run a scheme it's another thing to make a scheme. Right now Gus Bradley is left to salvage a bunch of players that didn't pan out in a scheme that they were drafted to play in. Think about this we drafted Clelin Ferrell fourth overall because he fit Paul Guenther scheme better than Josh Allen or Brian Burns. We drafted both Trevon Mullen and Damon Arnett because they were supposed to be press corners and Paul Gunther is supposed to be someone who runs a lot of press(That didn't happen). We got the best safety on the market at the time and switched him to corner because That's what Paul Gunther wanted. Cory Littleton what signed because Paul Gunther constantly complained about how there was no coverage talent at the linebacker position only to find out that Nicholas Morrow was better than him last year and was already on the roster(revealing the fact that he isn't even a very good evaluator of talent). We gave him three years of resources both in free agency and the draft and it actually seemed like he got worse. 

What you said about the Vikings players- the difference is Mike Zimmer knows how to develop talent. Gunther does not(Which is why he routinely gets veteran players) Those guys weren't free agents that were really good on other teams he drafted all of them and produced all of them. In the last three years, who is one player that Paul Gunther has ever produced that you can say he is a product of playing in our defense? 

I really do believe it's a big issue how bad Paul Gunther really was that really gets overlooked because we went 8-8 and missed the playoffs. He was garbage and Gruden has to answer for that. 

[drfrey13]

9 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Brandon Parker is currently the best RT we have on the roster at this moment in time as well, that doesn't inspire confidence. 

Foster Moreau would beat him out in an open competition.  Only Cable thinks he is the best RT we have.

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, Jeremy408 said:

 

I agree with the Robert Saleh comment

My problem with the lack of talent argument with Gunther is that we got him every one he wanted and invested money and draft picks into his "vision". If he can build a defense he is without excuse. The problem is that he can't(And Gruden Should've known that). The other thing that's key is at the scheme that he's running isn't even his scheme it's Mike Zimmer scheme. It's one thing to run a scheme it's another thing to make a scheme. Right now Gus Bradley is left to salvage a bunch of players that didn't pan out in a scheme that they were drafted to play in. Think about this we drafted Clelin Ferrell fourth overall because he fit Paul Guenther scheme better than Josh Allen or Brian Burns. We drafted both Trevon Mullen and Damon Arnett because they were supposed to be press corners and Paul Gunther is supposed to be someone who runs a lot of press(That didn't happen). We got the best safety on the market at the time and switched him to corner because That's what Paul Gunther wanted. Cory Littleton what signed because Paul Gunther constantly complained about how there was no coverage talent at the linebacker position only to find out that Nicholas Morrow was better than him last year and was already on the roster(revealing the fact that he isn't even a very good evaluator of talent). We gave him three years of resources both in free agency and the draft and it actually seemed like he got worse. 

What you said about the Vikings players- the difference is Mike Zimmer knows how to develop talent. Gunther does not(Which is why he routinely gets veteran players) Those guys weren't free agents that were really good on other teams he drafted all of them and produced all of them. In the last three years, who is one player that Paul Gunther has ever produced that you can say he is a product of playing in our defense? 

I really do believe it's a big issue how bad Paul Gunther really was that really gets overlooked because we went 8-8 and missed the playoffs. He was garbage and Gruden has to answer for that. 

Guenther had real issues communicating and therefore developing talent.  Anyone that wants to use his time in Cinci as evidence he is a god coordinator needs to remember the defense was already in place with talent and leaders that knew the system when he took over.  It is like saying Callahan is a better coach then Gruden because he got us to the Super Bowl.  The easy way to defeat that idea is that Callahan was unable to adjust the offense to the point that nothing was changed before we played the coach that built that offense.  Just like how KNJ and Guenther were unable to bring what were successful defensive schemes from other teams and build them to even be average.  All 3 knew the scheme but lacked a true understanding.

Edited April 10, 2021 by drfrey13

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

My problem with the lack of talent argument with Gunther is that we got him every one he wanted and invested money and draft picks into his "vision". If he can build a defense he is without excuse.

Again that falls back on Gruden and Mayock though. At the end of the day they're the ones making the final call on personnel decisions. We targeted guys that were supposed to fit in Guenther's scheme but they just weren't very good at all. 

[Jeremy408]

12 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Again that falls back on Gruden and Mayock though. At the end of the day they're the ones making the final call on personnel decisions. We targeted guys that were supposed to fit in Guenther's scheme but they just weren't very good at all. 

That part I don’t disagree with(except you can’t blame Mayock because Gunther was there before he got there). Gruden has to answer for why he kept all Gunther for three years with no results (other than being a top 10 run defense two years ago because everybody passed all over us). 

But as far as personnel is concerned, if you’re the head coach and or the general manager of the idea is to get players that fit the defense of scheme of the DC otherwise you’re just handicapping the DC. And with that being said Lamarcus Joyner and  Corey Littleton were both very successful players before they got here. As much as I dislike Cory Littleton(even before we signed him), The cold hard truth is if somehow we cut him this off-season he will get picked up within a week. 

But sure you’re right about players like Malik Collins or Carl Nassib. But again the commentary when they were signed was that they were supposed fits for what Paul gunther wanted to do. 
 

another thing to think about is most of the signing and drafting issues that people have are defensive what do you think that is. 

well there may be some complaints about some of the offensive moves, the reality is that we are top 10 offense(and we’re top 11 last year) so realistically most of the offense of moves that we make are here nor there because regardless of whatever we think of Gruden as someone who runs the front office the guy knows how to run an offense. So whenever we get someone like Willis snead or John Brown or even can you and Drake for 5.5 million a year the idea is a Gruden knows what he’s doing offensively.

when it comes to moves defensively however a lot of the moves were based on the premise the Paul gunther similar he knew what he was doing when he in fact did not and gave you no reason to believe that he would. That’s just the reality of the situation

[agarcia34]

If anything KJ gives the Raiders some flexibility in the draft. Now they can wait a little instead of having to draft one in the first or second round. 

[Turnobili]

this thread became quite the flame war haha. i love it.