Chiefs trade for OT Orlando Brown

[onejayhawk]

2 hours ago, Chiefer said:

I mean hes only traded away a first round pick one time. And he got a 2nd round pick out of it. No reason to leave fate to the wind and hope a needed player falls to us. We NEED a LT in the short term and we got the best one on the market imo. Good enough for me, worry about the future once we get to it, im living in the now.
 

Our draft class wasnt that great last year. Clyde was kinda disappointing and got hurt, Gay hardly played and got hurt, Niang was out. Sneed really saved this class, and the late round pocks were solid contributors. Veach really isn’t that great a drafter.

no matter your complaints you can’t prepare for Fisher and Schwartz and Osemele, and LDT and Niang to be out. Nobody can survive that war of attrition. 

What are you talking about? We rocked last year's draft.

The only dark spot is Willie Gay, and the jury is still out on him.

• 1.32 RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire Louisiana State - Good pick. A stud, but you expect that in the 1st 
• 2.31 LB Willie Gay Jr. Mississippi State - We'll see. The talent is there. Can he learn to play with it?
• 3.32 OL Lucas Niang Texas Christian - A steal. We have not seen him on the field, but he rated 1st/2nd round aside from the injury. After a redshirt year, he should be ready to start. 
• 4.32 DB L'Jarius Sneed Louisiana Tech - Monster pick. Possibly the best pick in the entire draft. Future Pro Bowl CB. 
• 5.32 DL Michael Danna Michigan - Excellent pick at this point in the going. Full time rotation DE. 
• 7.23 DB Thakarius "BoPete" Keyes Tulane - Fair. Played some ST and a few snaps. About par for a 7th round pick who made the team.
• UDFA Tommy Townsend - One of the best punters in the league already. 
• UDFA Tershawn "Turk" Wharton - Only Chris Jones keeps him from starting. Has the build to play DE.

Two Starters and three impact rookies is a good draft. Niang may make it exceptional

[Chiefer]

3 minutes ago, onejayhawk said:

What are you talking about? We rocked last year's draft.

The only dark spot is Willie Gay, and the jury is still out on him.

• 1.32 RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire Louisiana State - Good pick. A stud, but you expect that in the 1st 
• 2.31 LB Willie Gay Jr. Mississippi State - We'll see. The talent is there. Can he learn to play with it?
• 3.32 OL Lucas Niang Texas Christian - A steal. We have not seen him on the field, but he rated 1st/2nd round aside from the injury. After a redshirt year, he should be ready to start. 
• 4.32 DB L'Jarius Sneed Louisiana Tech - Monster pick. Possibly the best pick in the entire draft. Future Pro Bowl CB. 
• 5.32 DL Michael Danna Michigan - Excellent pick at this point in the going. Full time rotation DE. 
• 7.23 DB Thakarius "BoPete" Keyes Tulane - Fair. Played some ST and a few snaps. About par for a 7th round pick who made the team.
• UDFA Tommy Townsend - One of the best punters in the league already. 
• UDFA Tershawn "Turk" Wharton - Only Chris Jones keeps him from starting. Has the build to play DE.

Two Starters and three impact rookies is a good draft. Niang may make it exceptional

Eh, i didnt think CEH was all that great. How many games with 100 yards rushing like 2? A product of the OL sure, but i expect a lot out of a first round pick RB. Really didn't deliver like i thought he would, still has time thoug. Hes a starter by default for now.

Sneed is an absolute beast though. We lucked out with him. The rest were good contributors, which is all i ask for in the later rounds. Seems like Veach does well with later round picks which is nice to see.

[Chiefer]

3 hours ago, kingseanjohn said:

2018 Dorsey traded for Mahomes; Veach trades up for Breeland Speaks for his first pick.

2019 Veach traded for Clark. We gave up a 2019 1st and 2020 2nd, and swapped 2020 3rds.

2020 Veach picked CEH

2021 Veach traded for Brown. We gave up a 1st, 3rd, and 4th in 2021 and a 5th in 2022. We also got a 2021 2nd and 2022 6th.

Oh yeah forgot about Clark. That was a bad one in hindsight. At least Seattle got a bad player with that pick we gave up for him

[nicfre2011]

Ok, I am starting to really come around on this trade. Veach really needs to hit on this draft and not get cute and pull a Speaks. Hopefully we can pick up some solid veterans from post-draft cuts.

[Chiefs_5627]

3 hours ago, Chiefer said:

Oh yeah forgot about Clark. That was a bad one in hindsight. At least Seattle got a bad player with that pick we gave up for him

Not really disagreeing with you but to be fair Clark was seriously clutch throughout the playoffs and the (54) SB. But yeah he needs to live up to the contract or be taking a hike

Edited April 25, 2021 by Chiefs_5627

[kempus]

2 hours ago, Chiefs_5627 said:

Not really disagreeing with you but to be fair Clark was seriously clutch throughout the playoffs and the (54) SB. But yeah he needs to live up to the contract or be taking a hike

I agree, would have have won the SB without him? He hasn't been worth the contract, but I dont think you can say it was an awful trade.

[Jakuvious]

6 hours ago, Chiefer said:

Eh, i didnt think CEH was all that great. How many games with 100 yards rushing like 2? A product of the OL sure, but i expect a lot out of a first round pick RB. Really didn't deliver like i thought he would, still has time thoug. Hes a starter by default for now.

Sneed is an absolute beast though. We lucked out with him. The rest were good contributors, which is all i ask for in the later rounds. Seems like Veach does well with later round picks which is nice to see.

This is an absolutely horrendous barometer to use, and I feel like you should know that. An elite RB these days goes for what, about 5 yards per carry? That's where Cook and Kamara fell last year. Henry was higher, but he had another kind of year. But anyway, 5 yards per carry, you'd need 20+ carries to top 100 yards. CEH only got 20 carries 3 times. And he got 100+ yards 2 of the times he did. This isn't Priest in the mid-2000s, or even Jamaal a decade ago, where the RB was the offense's carry and was going to get workhorse ball distribution on the ground every week. If you're expecting that, that's a problem with you, not CEH. That's not how the league uses RBs anymore (except Derrick Henry), and we're an even further outlier on the trend of RB usage beyond that.

But seriously, 100 yard rushing games? Alvin Kamara had 1 last year. Hell, Jamaal Charles had just 1 in 2014, the last year he was fully healthy for us. That's just not a measurement by which to judge a RB in a modern offense, especially an Andy Reid one.

We didn't draft CEH to be a 20+ carry 100+ rushing yard workhorse. We drafted him to bring stability to a RB position that the year prior had lost us multiple games with fumbles, and while Williams and McCoy both had highs, they both had terrible lows. I don't think CEH has been some slam dunk pick so far, but he did stabilize the position, and consistently gained a little bit more than what the OL gave him.

[Jakuvious]

14 hours ago, samsel23 said:

The Super Bowl is always realistic with Mahomes.   Continually ignoring the draft and trading away our top draft asset is not a great way to build for continuous success.    Veach has made 1 first round pick in all the years we've had him,  is that not crazy to anyone else.    If it weren't for the roster he inherited from the previous regime,  he would be struggling mightily.     Yes it was the right move to get rid of Dorsey,   but why can't we act like this is an issue.     Yes we're winning..   no the sky isn't falling...   but I can definitely question that the majority of Veach guys that contribute to this team are well paid to be here via trade and FA.    Unless Reid is getting to a point where he thinks retirement is an option,  I don't see the need to continually throw all our eggs in one basket..   if he is,  than yes I am all for getting Reid out the door in style in these coming years.        

 

None of this is to say I don't like what Brown brings to the table,   he improves our team.    But you saw what happened when we kept all our picks last year,  it was one of the better rookie classes we've had in some time.    Get 2-3 years of that.. and you have a full roster instead of amazing starters and crap depth (which is why we lost the SB)

 

I mean, we've only had him for 3 drafts, and one of those picks was traded away before he arrived. So basically he's had one first round pick in two drafts. I don't find that too crazy.

 

The problem I have with some of these arguments, and I'll admit I'm projecting here, this isn't necessarily you specifically, is you say you know the sky isn't falling, yet there's just constant hyperbole about Veach's tenure in order to take the pessimistic side of the argument. Like, "the majority of Veach guys that contribute to this team are well paid to be here via trade and FA." Or, "crap depth (which is why we lost the SB)." Like, how many high paid free agents or trade targets were on the roster last year? 3? Watkins, Clark, and Mathieu? Basically a who's who of guys we wouldn't have won the superbowl without in 2018, but I digress. That's 3 guys. Maybe Hitch makes 4? But I don't see how that makes up the majority of Veach guys, compared to Nnadi, Pennel, Wharton, Wilson, Gay, Danna, Breeland, Sneed, Ward, Fenton, Thornhill, Allegretti, Osemele, Reiter, Hardman, Pringle, CEH, Williams, Townsend...who were all Veach adds either in the draft, or on the cheap in free agency. And to say depth is why we lost the SB is just absurdly foolish. As if any team could lose that many linemen and find a way to hold up against that pass rush. When the ask was reasonable, our depth held up fantastically. One OT down, Remmers did great. One G down, Osemele did well, when Osemele fell, Allegretti was good enough too. We have some of the best depth in the NFL at DB and DT. Henne balled out when asked. Darrell Williams was fantastic, despite projecting as the #3 guy, when CEH got hurt. I thought our DE depth did pretty well in light of Taco and Okafor both going down. Danna looked very promising. Our depth sucks at TE, for sure. Probably at LB, though really we just need a better starter and then guys like Niemann are fine as backups. Saying we lost the SB because our depth was crap is blatantly ignorant of how much the team's depth did to get us there in the first place (we don't make it that far without Williams, Remmers, Kilgore, Allegretti, Danna, Sneed, etc., etc.) and makes it sound like it's possible to have a roster without holes. Every team needs better depth. Most teams need better starters, first. If you can even talk about the depth that's a pretty damn good sign.

Like, I get it. There are absolutely cap concerns about the future. And every draft pick given up is one less lottery ticket we can try to cash in to replace one of the guys we won't be able to pay some day. But there can be a middle ground between nothing is wrong, and Veach is throwing away the future and adding nothing to the roster but high priced free agents. Like, you call it the roster he inherited, and that's not the first time I've seen that said around here, but does anyone even remember the 2016 roster? Or even the 2017 roster? The first game played with Brett Veach at GM, our starting roster was Smith, Hunt, Hill, Conley, Wilson, Kelce, Fisher, Witzmann, Morse, LDT, Schwartz, Jones, Logan, Bailey, Houston, DJ, Wilson, Ford, Peters, Mitchell, Berry, Parker. The guys in bold were guy by week 1 of the next year. Italics were out by week one of 2019. Strikethrough won't hit the roster next year. We went 14-2 last year, with Hill, Kelce, Fish, and Jones, being the only four starters that survived from the pre-Veach era. This isn't Dorsey's roster anymore. It hasn't been for awhile. Just because the biggest two or three names have been around for awhile (which makes sense, since you're going to keep the best players the longest regardless of front office turnover) doesn't mean this isn't Veach's built roster, at this point.

[Jakuvious]

I do have one question, not related to my past two posts, for those who pay more attention to the draft than I.

I don't follow prospects closely. Used to, back when I felt like I had more time for it, but not anymore. So I just go by position and read reports after we draft guys. But everything I've heard regarding the OT position this draft, is that Sewell is the top guy, there's a couple of guys that are clearly below him, but wouldn't have fallen until 31 anyways. And then there's a cluster of guys that are pretty good but with clear flaws, and all of them are kind of a question of your preferences or opinion (I've seen differing opinions on Jenkins, Leatherwood, Forscythe, Cosmi, Mayfield, and probably a few others, on either being worth 31 or only worth 63 or somewhere in between.) If that's the case, isn't the talent gap between who we could've gotten with the pick we gave up (#31), and who we could now get with the pick we acquired (#58) fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things? Does that not play into the value of a trade like this? Because the value picks have isn't just by the trade chart, it does ultimately come down to the talent available. Like, trading up to the top 5 for a QB is always more expensive than if the QBs are already gone. Could pick #31 not being a high value spot for our needs versus the talent in the draft have played a part in the decision as well? Like, the NFL.com mock has Leatherwood and Cosmi as the best OTs available at the #31 spot, with Mayfield and Little as the top guys left at #58. Is the gap between those players actually ~30 spots big?

Just a thought.

[Edge]

I didn't had any time since the trade to make a comment.

I like that we adressed the most glaring hole in the line, with one of the best players available and i do think it's a good trade value, Losing the 1st round pick makes sense in such a trade. It takes a bit of the fun from day 1 for me, but it's for sure healthier since i had a couple of pretty tough days of work behind me and probably another stressful week in front of me, so i can make an easy decision and skip the 1st day and get some sleep and rest instead.

Besides that i only worry about the money. I have no idea, if the cap will increase next season again. I guess he gets an extension at some point, but i dunno how we're arranging the money. Obviously some cuts are possible, but well i haven't been able to dig into it at all, so i dunno if it's possible to keep the main core group of guys and extend Brown.

Another thing that might be a problem in this trade is losing the picks, we could have used to bolster the roster with guys, who could have contribute in the future, at least to be good depth. On the other hand i guess we're going to be a primary spot for UDFA's again. Maybe we can get something out of 1 or 2 of these guys.

But to end it on a positive note, it can also be a wise move as it might be hard to figure out some of these prospects, after a short and or even non existing season.

[Chiefer]

6 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

This is an absolutely horrendous barometer to use, and I feel like you should know that. An elite RB these days goes for what, about 5 yards per carry? That's where Cook and Kamara fell last year. Henry was higher, but he had another kind of year. But anyway, 5 yards per carry, you'd need 20+ carries to top 100 yards. CEH only got 20 carries 3 times. And he got 100+ yards 2 of the times he did. This isn't Priest in the mid-2000s, or even Jamaal a decade ago, where the RB was the offense's carry and was going to get workhorse ball distribution on the ground every week. If you're expecting that, that's a problem with you, not CEH. That's not how the league uses RBs anymore (except Derrick Henry), and we're an even further outlier on the trend of RB usage beyond that.

But seriously, 100 yard rushing games? Alvin Kamara had 1 last year. Hell, Jamaal Charles had just 1 in 2014, the last year he was fully healthy for us. That's just not a measurement by which to judge a RB in a modern offense, especially an Andy Reid one.

We didn't draft CEH to be a 20+ carry 100+ rushing yard workhorse. We drafted him to bring stability to a RB position that the year prior had lost us multiple games with fumbles, and while Williams and McCoy both had highs, they both had terrible lows. I don't think CEH has been some slam dunk pick so far, but he did stabilize the position, and consistently gained a little bit more than what the OL gave him.

Part of the reason he doesnt get many carries is due to the offense sure, but its also because he wasnt very good and Reid will abandon the run if its not looking good. He also got hurt late in the year, a bad sign from a little RB.
 

Like i said i expect a lot out of my 1st round RBs otherwise why’d you draft them so early? To fill a hole with adequate personnel? Stability can be found later in the draft i wanna see an impact. Didnt see much of one last year, what use is a pass catching RB with our QB?
 

I dont think Kamara is really that good either honestly. Seems to be hurt a lot, and not a great runner of the ball.

[KCsb]

The addition of Orlando Brown will not only allow Mahome's to have a record passing year, but if Defenses drop back their linebackers into coverage CEH is going to have a field day.  He won't need 20+ carries to get 100 yards rushing.

Which teams have a chance to play the Chiefs with a chance to win with what Veach has assembled going into this season?  Cleveland, Baltimore, Buffalo?  Our offense is going to run circles around these teams.  Imagine being a D coordinator and trying to scheme against the Chiefs offense.  Daunting. 

[onejayhawk]

The best way I have seen to look at the trade is this. We traded 

#31, #94, and #136 (1st, 3rd, 4th) for
#45 and #58 (two 2nds).

We accepted rights to Orlando Brown in lieu of #45.

@Jakuvious Good point about turnover. This year and next year will be particularly bad that way. As it stands, three projected OL starters are on their final year. For the next two years, the OL will be built, presumably, around Thuney and Niang. As it stands now, contract extensions for Tyrann Mathieu and others loom.

Here are all the one-year or last year of contract players, presumed starters bold.

Laurent Duvernay-Tardif	Chad Henne	Blake Bell	Demone Harris	Jordan Ta'amu
Tyrann Mathieu	Armani Watts	Demarcus Robinson	Elijah McGuire	Prince Tega Wanogho
Jarran Reed	Daniel Sorensen	Taco Charlton	Gehrig Dieter	Darryl Williams
James Winchester	Andrew Wylie	Bryan Witzmann	Marcus Kemp	Anthony Gordon
Derrick Nnadi	Byron Pringle	Michael Burton	Evan Baylis	Austin Edwards
Martinas Rankin	Darrel Williams	Tajae Sharpe	Deandre Baker	Dalton Schoen
Orlando Brown Jr.	Ben Niemann	Austin Blythe	Nick Keizer	Rodney Clemons
Charvarius Ward	Kyle Long	Chad Williams	Emmanuel Smith	Omari Cobb
Dorian O'Daniel	Darius Harris	Sean Culkin	Joe Fortson	Tyler Clark
Mike Remmers	Tim Ward	Antonio Callaway	Derrick Gore	Maurice Ffrench

[mayanfootball]

3 hours ago, Chiefer said:

 

I dont think Kamara is really that good either honestly. Seems to be hurt a lot, and not a great runner of the ball.

As with anyone in the NFL, injuries have caught up with Kamara. He's still pretty darn good tho.

[mayanfootball]

2 hours ago, KCsb said:

Imagine being a D coordinator and trying to scheme against the Chiefs offense. 

We've been quite fortunate that Kelce and Hill have not suffered major injuries recently. I would hope KC finds some backup help early in the draft. Specifically D'Wayne Eskridge or Anthony Schwartz comes to mind.