Boston front office turnover : Ainge out / Stevens in

[MookieMonstah]

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Again, all those assets and what to show for them?  3 Conference Championships to show for it, and Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum.  Just because you can pay someone a max contract doesn't mean they're max FA players.  I stand by my original question, do you think you can win a championship with Hayward or Horford as your #2 on a championship team?

Hayward was your #3, so was Horford so thats an unfair question...they were never intended to be your #2 guy. I think Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are two very good things to show, every team in the league would love to have both of them. I'd say having Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum is a lot to show for it. Bob Williams is very good when he stays healthy. I don't think Jimmy Butler is that much better than Jaylen Brown so I'm okay with them passing on him. AD wouldn't have stayed, Kawhi wouldn't have stayed. Ainge has done a great job. Its a silly argument, 95% of NBA teams would kill for 3 Conference Championships and Jaylen Brown/Jayson Tatum to build around.

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, MookieMonstah said:

Hayward was your #3, so was Horford so thats an unfair question...they were never intended to be your #2 guy. I think Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are two very good things to show, every team in the league would love to have both of them. I'd say having Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum is a lot to show for it. Bob Williams is very good when he stays healthy. I don't think Jimmy Butler is that much better than Jaylen Brown so I'm okay with them passing on him. AD wouldn't have stayed, Kawhi wouldn't have stayed. Ainge has done a great job. Its a silly argument, 95% of NBA teams would kill for 3 Conference Championships and Jaylen Brown/Jayson Tatum to build around.

So you're telling me you're okay with roster construction if your #3 guy is a max FA player?  You're misconstruing having a max FA slot and a player being worth a max FA contract.  I mean, look at the Kemba Walker deal.  That was a max FA contract (or very close) and that's been a poor investment even before his knees completely broke down.  You don't hand out max contracts for players who aren't your core players.  That's bad roster construction.  The Hornets were blasted for handing out a similar (albeit smaller) contract to Gordon Hayward this past offseason.  But if he signs that contract with Boston, you want to say that he signed a good contract?  You don't judge a contract based on where the player signs.  You sign it based on what his production is going to be.

You pointed out two top 3 picks.  You're expected to hit on those picks.  If you miss, odds are you're likely out of a job.  In 2014, the C's had 2 draft picks and only one (Marcus Smart) is still in the NBA.  In 2015, the C's had 4 picks and only one (Terry Rozier) is still in the NBA.  In 2016, they had 6 (8 before they dealt 2 to Memphis) and only one (Jaylen Brown) are still in the NBA.  In 2017, the C's had 4 picks and only 2 (Jayson Tatum and Semi Ojeleye) are still in the NBA.  In 2018, you had one (Robert Williams) and he's still in the NBA.  In 2019, the C's had 4 picks and only 2 of them are still on the roster.  Of those guys still on the Celtics' roster, I'd argue that only Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, and Jayson Tatum are core players on the Celtics.  Obviously, Rozier is a core player on Charlotte.  That's 4 out of 21 players that are rotational players.

[MookieMonstah]

1 minute ago, CWood21 said:

So you're telling me you're okay with roster construction if your #3 guy is a max FA player?  You're misconstruing having a max FA slot and a player being worth a max FA contract.  I mean, look at the Kemba Walker deal.  That was a max FA contract (or very close) and that's been a poor investment even before his knees completely broke down.  You don't hand out max contracts for players who aren't your core players.  That's bad roster construction.  The Hornets were blasted for handing out a similar (albeit smaller) contract to Gordon Hayward this past offseason.  But if he signs that contract with Boston, you want to say that he signed a good contract?  You don't judge a contract based on where the player signs.  You sign it based on what his production is going to be.

You pointed out two top 3 picks.  You're expected to hit on those picks.  If you miss, odds are you're likely out of a job.  In 2014, the C's had 2 draft picks and only one (Marcus Smart) is still in the NBA.  In 2015, the C's had 4 picks and only one (Terry Rozier) is still in the NBA.  In 2016, they had 6 (8 before they dealt 2 to Memphis) and only one (Jaylen Brown) are still in the NBA.  In 2017, the C's had 4 picks and only 2 (Jayson Tatum and Semi Ojeleye) are still in the NBA.  In 2018, you had one (Robert Williams) and he's still in the NBA.  In 2019, the C's had 4 picks and only 2 of them are still on the roster.  Of those guys still on the Celtics' roster, I'd argue that only Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, and Jayson Tatum are core players on the Celtics.  Obviously, Rozier is a core player on Charlotte.  That's 4 out of 21 players that are rotational players.

Hayward pre Boston was absolutely worth a max. Thats such a hindsight argument, the guys ankle exploded and he was never the same. How the hell is Ainge supposed to predict that? Horford was 100% worth a max, he was a DPOY caliber player and one of the best big men in the league while in Boston. 

Do that cute draft pick thing with every team in the NBA, I'd be willing to bet you'll be surprised how similar the results are considering like 85% of players in every NBA draft end up busting. The Celtics were also a competitive playoff team. Those guys might've hung around on other rosters and acting like 2nd round picks not contributing is some sort of knock on Danny Ainge is so outrageous. 

Its how Ainge nailed Tatum and Brown as well. He got a ton of draft capital and still got arguably the best player from the 2017 draft class, he took a guy most teams had going 8 at 3 and nailed that pick as well. Smart is one of the only guys who was even decent from that draft class.

 

[CWood21]

7 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Hayward pre Boston was absolutely worth a max. Thats such a hindsight argument, the guys ankle exploded and he was never the same. How the hell is Ainge supposed to predict that? Horford was 100% worth a max, he was a DPOY caliber player and one of the best big men in the league while in Boston.

Yet Hayward didn't win squat in Utah.  He went to the playoffs twice in his career with Utah, and made it past the first round only once in 7 seasons.  That's not a great player.  That's a good player.  So I'll ask you again, do you think you can win with Hayward as your second best player?  Because I don't.  And Al Horford wasn't even close to being a DPOY while in Boston.  His best year he came in 4th in voting, and the other two years he didn't receive any votes.  He's an elite role player, but he's not a top option.  Definitely not one of the best big men.

15 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Do that cute draft pick thing with every team in the NBA, I'd be willing to bet you'll be surprised how similar the results are considering like 85% of players in every NBA draft end up busting. The Celtics were also a competitive playoff team. Those guys might've hung around on other rosters and acting like 2nd round picks not contributing is some sort of knock on Danny Ainge is so outrageous. 

And I'd agree with that sentiment.  But again, I'll pose the same question to you, how many teams had the sheer amount of assets that Ainge had?  None.  And I'm more or less judging how teams do with non-top 10 picks than I am based on what they do with top 10 picks.  You're expected to hit with top 10 picks.

[Fresh Prince]

Other then LA last year the last few Champs #3 guy were all Max players.

 

[Fresh Prince]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Yet Hayward didn't win squat in Utah.  He went to the playoffs twice in his career with Utah, and made it past the first round only once in 7 seasons.  That's not a great player.  That's a good player.  So I'll ask you again, do you think you can win with Hayward as your second best player?  Because I don't.  And Al Horford wasn't even close to being a DPOY while in Boston.  His best year he came in 4th in voting, and the other two years he didn't receive any votes.  He's an elite role player, but he's not a top option.  Definitely not one of the best big men.

And I'd agree with that sentiment.  But again, I'll pose the same question to you, how many teams had the sheer amount of assets that Ainge had?  None.  And I'm more or less judging how teams do with non-top 10 picks than I am based on what they do with top 10 picks.  You're expected to hit with top 10 picks.

majority of top 10 picks in the NBA are busts. It’s not some slam dunk that your suppose to hit when stats show there’s more busts then Great to Good players. 

[Fresh Prince]

Again with all of Ainges assets he got Tatum, Brown, Kyrie. Then rest were late firsts that are normally a Bust in the NBA. 99% of teams would be happy getting out of those picks what Danny did. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Fresh Prince

[Leader]

Just now, Fresh Prince said:

majority of top 10 picks in the NBA are busts.

Thats an amazing comment.

Not contesting it mind you, but seriously. If the fail rate is that high.....whats the draft for?  College Bball is pretty well established....how can they be supplying so many busts? Players playing less (?) and coming into the NBA too soon?

[Fresh Prince]

Just went and looked back at Draft 2015-2018 top 10 and these are the players that are Allstars type players.

 

2018-Ayton,Doncic,Young

2017-Tatum, and maybe Fox, Lauri

2016- Simmons,Brown,Murray maybe Ingram and Hield

2015-Towns and maybe Porzingis, Russell

 

The rest are all average role players and busts. Add in a few good players Hields , Russell’s etc

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Fresh Prince

[Fresh Prince]

1 minute ago, Fresh Prince said:

 

Editing 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Fresh Prince

[MookieMonstah]

41 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Yet Hayward didn't win squat in Utah.  He went to the playoffs twice in his career with Utah, and made it past the first round only once in 7 seasons.  That's not a great player.  That's a good player.  So I'll ask you again, do you think you can win with Hayward as your second best player?  Because I don't.  And Al Horford wasn't even close to being a DPOY while in Boston.  His best year he came in 4th in voting, and the other two years he didn't receive any votes.  He's an elite role player, but he's not a top option.  Definitely not one of the best big men.

And I'd agree with that sentiment.  But again, I'll pose the same question to you, how many teams had the sheer amount of assets that Ainge had?  None.  And I'm more or less judging how teams do with non-top 10 picks than I am based on what they do with top 10 picks.  You're expected to hit with top 10 picks.

Why do you keep returning to Al Horford and Hayward as your #2 player? They were never, and were never intended to be, the second best players on championship teams. Al Horford was the in the running for DPOY for a majority of that season, you seem to have a big issue with revisionist history. 

Context is important and you seem dead set on ignoring it. The Celtics were consistent playoff teams, how many consistent playoff teams work late firsts and second round picks into the rotation? It's a dumb set of rules to argue around. It's really not up for debate, Ainge was one of the best GMs in the league over his tenure. Very few franchises have had the long success that Boston has had. Their two best players are under aren't even 25.

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, Leader said:

Thats an amazing comment.

Not contesting it mind you, but seriously. If the fail rate is that high.....whats the draft for?  College Bball is pretty well established....how can they be supplying so many busts? Players playing less (?) and coming into the NBA too soon?

The draft is an absolute crap shoot and unless the league was going to have 100 superstars how could every top 10 pick pan out?

[seminoles1]

2 hours ago, Leader said:

Thats an amazing comment.

Not contesting it mind you, but seriously. If the fail rate is that high.....whats the draft for?  College Bball is pretty well established....how can they be supplying so many busts? Players playing less (?) and coming into the NBA too soon?

There's just as many busts in the NFL draft.

You can't predict the future.

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Yet Hayward didn't win squat in Utah.  He went to the playoffs twice in his career with Utah, and made it past the first round only once in 7 seasons.  That's not a great player.  That's a good player.  So I'll ask you again, do you think you can win with Hayward as your second best player?  Because I don't. 

We were rebuilding when Hayward was in Utah and had a super young team. He was starting to come into his own and averaged 22/5/4 which was good enough to make the All-Star team on a 51 win team who's #2 option offensively was George Hill. Pascal Siakam's was the Raptors 2nd best player when they won the title and Hayward was better than he was that year heading to Boston. That freak injury just derailed his career. 

[NYRaider]

3 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

There's just as many busts in the NFL draft.

You can't predict the future.

Where a player lands, their role, the coaching staff, etc. also plays such a huge role on if a player pans out or not. Giannis was the 15th pick and Rudy was the 27th pick in a historically bad draft class and they've both developed into All-NBA players while only 1 player taken in the top 10 (Oladipo) that year has ever even been an All-Star.