Preseason Week 2 - Bears vs Tru Believers

[abstract_thought]

9 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

And how do you know this?

It’s my opinion based on reasons I stated in the exact post you quoted. He has limited football experience, is still developing as a TE, and needs game time.

[soulman]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

If you ever coach youth football you will find that some parents will literally try to get you fired if you put their kid on the OL.

It is the least desired position to play.

Only fat slow, smart kids who have no ego (because they aren’t spoiled) will willingly play OL with no complaint.  

Multiply that situation over the years to elite level of NFL and the physical talent gap between the average DL and an OL is immense.  

That beings said you will  find over the years how it ends up is the OL are almost always the smartest, best humans on any team.  Why I love them so much.

Humble people are easy to love.  

 

 

Can't say better than this.  It's also why most teams can find decent OL prospects later in the draft or even as UDFA.  If you can find high football IQ guys who can come in and learn your blocking schemes you can turn some into high caliber OL.

Take Sam Mustipher as an example.  ND doesn't allow dunces to be given football scholarships so if you draft or sign a "Domer" you're probably getting a kid with above average intelligence. He came in as a starter late last season and immediately the OL play improved because the OC was good at getting the line calls made and his blocking set up properly for a change.

But Sam also knew bigger stronger DT and NT could man handle him at time so what did he do?  He spent the offseason working on his conditioning and added another 10-12 pounds of lean muscle mass to help him improve his game.  IMHO it's that kind of humility and intelligence that makes a good OL.  And FWIW Daniels did the very same the previous season.

Edited August 23, 2021 by soulman

[dll2000]

13 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

Kmet hasn’t really established himself enough to not be playing. He came into the league as a relatively raw, inexperienced player who had never focused on football. He needs to be playing games.

I think you can put Mooney in that category too.

Mooney and Kmet should not theoretically be given the established vet preseason treatment.   

Problem is take either Mooney or Robinson off that WR core and it is very limited and sub par. 

Mooney is also so slight one bad hit may put him out for time.

As far as TEs Graham is old and James while playing well is still a journeyman.

So I can see the thinking with being scared to play those two in live football.

 

 

 

[AZBearsFan]

I was at the game Saturday and watched it again Sunday to see the TV version. Apparently I hate myself. Blue Angels were sick though.

I thought our starters on defense looked uninspiring because they looked uninspired. It was vets largely secure in their roster spots and starting positions who are playing not to get hurt. The scheme was bland. No stunts up front. No blitzing. Just Plain Jane play after play after play. Outside of JJ the CBs all played 5 yards off and Mitch took a crap ton of 3 yard passes with YAC. Isaiah McKenzie torched Ogletree and Christian Jones, who can’t run with him like Roquan can, for six catches in the first quarter. Tackling showed the kind of lack of effort you mostly see from a bunch of vets in preseason week 2. You can’t see that effort in the regular season, but you won’t either.

On offense, Dalton doesn’t have the talent to make the players around him better, and he was out there with bums, behind a bum line. He was bad, but that was expected with that group (and if I’m wearing my tin foil hat, maybe the plan).

I liked what I saw from Fields. He was composed all game despite being under pretty frequent pressure. He took that huge hit and shook it off like it was nothing. I frickin’ love that he’s always looking to throw when he’s on the move too, and that he’s sliding when he should. His legs are a WEAPON. You can’t box score scout this one and get a sense of how well he played. 3 drops cost him like 65 yards, and unquestionably kept points off the board. The throw to Ridley was a DIME. The long completion to James was a DIME. The throw to Johnson where the catch was overturned was a DIME, and seeing it live he signaled something to Johnson while walking up to the line and seeing the defense’s alignment he liked. An Adams drop cost him 12 yards and a first down just before the 4th and 3 first down run. The side arm flip to Pierce (I think) around a defender while he was on the move was filthy. Then in the postgame presser he says the fans shouldn’t chant his name and boo Dalton when Dalton is in… The kid had the “it” factor in every facet. He should be the starter right damn now both because he gives us the best chance to win and because he’s pretty clearly (IMO) ready to handle being an NFL starter.

You can miss me with the “Fields shouldn’t play week 1 because of Aaron Donald” stuff too. We play Myles Garrett week 3. Z’Darius Smith weeks 6 and 14. Shaq Barrett and JPP week 7. Joey Bosa week 8. TJ Watt week 9. JJ Watt and Chandler Jones week 13. Danielle Hunter weeks 15 and 18. We gonna sit him those games too? 

[Epyon]

6 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

I liked what I saw from Fields. He was composed all game despite being under pretty frequent pressure. He took that huge hit and shook it off like it was nothing. I frickin’ love that he’s always looking to throw when he’s on the move too, and that he’s sliding when he should. His legs are a WEAPON. You can’t box score scout this one and get a sense of how well he played. 3 drops cost him like 65 yards, and unquestionably kept points off the board. The throw to Ridley was a DIME. The long completion to James was a DIME. The throw to Johnson where the catch was overturned was a DIME, and seeing it live he signaled something to Johnson while walking up to the line and seeing the defense’s alignment he liked. An Adams drop cost him 12 yards and a first down just before the 4th and 3 first down run. The side arm flip to Pierce (I think) around a defender while he was on the move was filthy. Then in the postgame presser he says the fans shouldn’t chant his name and boo Dalton when Dalton is in… The kid had the “it” factor in every facet. He should be the starter right damn now both because he gives us the best chance to win and because he’s pretty clearly (IMO) ready to handle being an NFL starter.

You can miss me with the “Fields shouldn’t play week 1 because of Aaron Donald” stuff too. We play Myles Garrett week 3. Z’Darius Smith weeks 6 and 14. Shaq Barrett and JPP week 7. Joey Bosa week 8. TJ Watt week 9. JJ Watt and Chandler Jones week 13. Danielle Hunter weeks 15 and 18. We gonna sit him those games too? 

-I'd be curious what his stats would have been if all of those passes where completions (even assuming no YAC/down on catch).  Specifically completion %, QBR, and yards per attempt.... The eyeball test certainly had him -way- better than his stat sheet. 

I'd also be curious to see what Dalton would end up at doing the same for his preseason stats, for comparisons sake. I'm inclined to think the disparity is much larger for Fields than Dalton.

 

-Regarding the second paragraph I've got quoted..... I'd argue the strong pass rush only further incentivizes Fields to start.... Dalton isn't running away from Donald.... Fields can.

 

 

[soulman]

4 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

I thought our starters on defense looked uninspiring because they looked uninspired.

It may be getting much tougher to get inspired and play inspired defense when your HC keeps putting his famous 3 and out offense on the field every game.

Nagy constantly talks about putting his players in a position win yet each game he puts his defense in a position to lose simply by having a good for **** offense.

[AZBearsFan]

9 hours ago, soulman said:

It may be getting much tougher to get inspired and play inspired defense when your HC keeps putting his famous 3 and out offense on the field every game.

Nagy constantly talks about putting his players in a position win yet each game he puts his defense in a position to lose simply by having a good for **** offense.

Dalton has no rope, and no commitment beyond week 1 starter from Nagy. For all of his statements about Dalton, Nagy can’t keep from busting all over himself whenever he talks about Fields. Been that way since draft day, and has only grown since TC has confirmed basically everything suspected about him coming in. The starters, who haven’t really even played with Fields yet, already gush about him. They talk about Dalton’s professional approach, but they rave about Fields’ talent. It’s the NFL - talent wins.

Today Nagy said production and wins will drive who plays. This is the same guy who benched 2-0 Mitch last year for Foles after 2.5 bad quarters against Atlanta. Foles dreams about being Fields ability-wise, and Nagy is seemingly itching for a reason to drop his commitment to Dalton running with the 1s. Nagy was hired to groom Mitch - the only commitment he has to Dalton is a promise made before Fields was on the roster, with Fields being a guy he and Pace collaborated to target and acquire in the draft by any reasonable means. Moving to Fields from Dalton should 100% be the easier change to make for him without question. 

My guess? Nagy is following a 2017 QB plan, but Andy Dalton isn’t playing the role of Alex Smith. He’s starring as Tom Savage. Once he struggles, he’s out. A “Fields Package” will be a fixture until then to get him real reps with the 1s during the week and on Sundays without giving him “starter reps” in practice.

I’m no proponent of finding Fields a “soft” first start - I think that’s chicken **** and I don’t think Fields needs “protection” from the SNF spotlight or from Aaron Donald - but if that’s Nagy’s plan it makes all the sense in the world for that to be week 2 at home against the Bengals. Home opener. Fanfare will be insane. Weather should be good. Nagy gets to save Dalton the boos he himself didn’t really earn anyway. Wins all around. Then first road game would be week 3 at Cleveland, a tough opponent for sure but also just down the road from where Fields starred at OSU. Then week 4 against the Lions. 

[dll2000]

43 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Dalton has no rope, and no commitment beyond week 1 starter from Nagy. For all of his statements about Dalton, Nagy can’t keep from busting all over himself whenever he talks about Fields. Been that way since draft day, and has only grown since TC has confirmed basically everything suspected about him coming in. The starters, who haven’t really even played with Fields yet, already gush about him. They talk about Dalton’s professional approach, but they rave about Fields’ talent. It’s the NFL - talent wins.

Today Nagy said production and wins will drive who plays. This is the same guy who benched 2-0 Mitch last year for Foles after 2.5 bad quarters against Atlanta. Foles dreams about being Fields ability-wise, and Nagy is seemingly itching for a reason to drop his commitment to Dalton running with the 1s. Nagy was hired to groom Mitch - the only commitment he has to Dalton is a promise made before Fields was on the roster, with Fields being a guy he and Pace collaborated to target and acquire in the draft by any reasonable means. Moving to Fields from Dalton should 100% be the easier change to make for him without question. 

My guess? Nagy is following a 2017 QB plan, but Andy Dalton isn’t playing the role of Alex Smith. He’s starring as Tom Savage. Once he struggles, he’s out. A “Fields Package” will be a fixture until then to get him real reps with the 1s during the week and on Sundays without giving him “starter reps” in practice.

I’m no proponent of finding Fields a “soft” first start - I think that’s chicken **** and I don’t think Fields needs “protection” from the SNF spotlight or from Aaron Donald - but if that’s Nagy’s plan it makes all the sense in the world for that to be week 2 at home against the Bengals. Home opener. Fanfare will be insane. Weather should be good. Nagy gets to save Dalton the boos he himself didn’t really earn anyway. Wins all around. Then first road game would be week 3 at Cleveland, a tough opponent for sure but also just down the road from where Fields starred at OSU. Then week 4 against the Lions. 

It sounds like your theory is that Fields isn't starting now because Nagy/Pace promised Dalton a starting gig and that fulfils the promise.

Nagy has denied that.  It may still be true I don't know.  I thought bubbled that after draft as well.  

My theory is he practically worships Andy Reid and this is way Andy Reid did it with Mahomes therefore this is way Nagy should do it with Fields.

Bottom line is Fields should be starter and getting all the premium practice reps.   That is what is best for Bears.  Nagy isn't doing it and it pisses me off.

 

 

[JAF-N72EX]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:24 AM, soulman said:

It's not the loss that's aggravating.  It's the way they went about losing.

It was yet another sloppy, undisciplined, lazy effort coming off a week of some sloppy practices as well.

The last thing I care about in preseason is winning or losing. Box scores are meaningless. You can't use preseason as a way to judge how a team will play in the regular season, and we've seen too many examples as to why.

Yeah, the penalties were frustrating. Not just the absurd amount but level of stupidity of some of them at the wrong time and this falls solely on the coaching staff...absolutely... I agree wholeheartedly with this.

That said, I'm not ready to start arming pitchforks over what happens in week 2 of a preseason game either. Especially when you take a step back and look at where the penalties came from and who was on the field at the time. All but one penalty happened when the majority of players on the field were fringe players battling for a roster spot and it's very unlikely that we'll see this group come September. It's something to keep an eye on but I'm not overly concerned about it yet either. If we start seeing an abundance of penatlies from starters and vets then I'll get worried.

For example the first penalty of the game was an illegal formation in the 1st Q on a punt and below is a list of all 11 players who were on the field at the time and all of them except Pat and Scales are fighting for an active roster spot. I think it's safe we won't see this lineup in the regular season. (Pat, Scales, Artie Burns, Jesper Horsted, Xavier Crawford, Christian Jones, Marqui Christian, Khalil Herbert, Joel Iggy, Caleb Johnson, and Ryan Nall).

The 2nd offsides penalty was on Attaochu. The 3rd holding penalty was on Gipson, 4th was on Jesse James, 5th was holding in the secondary but the refs never said who it was on and Ive looked at the play several times and I cant see holding anywhere. The 6th illegal formation was on Horstead/Adams. The 7th was Jesse James again. The 8th was on Bars. 9th was on Lacy. 10th was unnecessary roughness that apprently must've happened somewhere in the parking lot. The 11th and 12th were on Albright.

On 8/23/2021 at 2:24 AM, soulman said:

That game was not a good way to convince your fan base your team is ready for the season or at least not one where you intend to win games.

These games are vanilla offenses vs vanilla defenses playing mostly 3rd string nobodies and are in no way meant to inspire a reaction from fans or players in no way, shape, or form and it's always been this way.
As I said before, see the Browns and Lions in recent past. How "inspired" do you think their teams and fan bases were when they went 4-0 in the preseason and ended up being the only 2 teams in history to go 0-16 in the regular season? Conversely, how "inspired" do you think the 1-3 Chiefs were to start the season in 2019 when they went on to go 15-4 enroute to a SB win?

Preseason games are meant for coaching evaluation purposes ONLY. Coaches and set starters are not going hard 100% to win (unless your Dennis Green-RIP). There is literally no benefit to risking an injury in a meaningless game. These games are meant to put (mainly bubble players) in real game situations to judge their health, how they move, how quick they absorb info from film, and to see how they perform in particular sets, formations, downs, distance, etc....and against players with a particular height, build, weight, skill set, etc.

This kind of info lets the staff know things such as .... "alright, X person's arm or leg really is fine and he wasn't just feeding Doc some BS out of fear of not getting a shot".  Or, "okay, X has a small frame but he held up well against a physical player with 2 inches of height and 25 more pounds on him in a short 3rd down play in short zone coverage even if he wasn't even targeted. We may only have 6 plays in the playbook that call for a 6 DBs but he looks like he could be the best one we have right now for this spot here and someone we could possibly develop into some more in the future" Ect, etc....

Again, teams had to cut their rosters down to 80 players from 90 this week and they only had two games to evaluate fringe players. And because there's only 3 PS games now, the third game will most likely be used to evaluate the remaining 25 players to cut the roster down to 55 (including the 2 additional practice squad players per the latest change to the CBA).

[JAF-N72EX]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:28 AM, dll2000 said:

If you ever coach youth football you will find that some parents will literally try to get you fired if you put their kid on the OL.

It is the least desired position to play.

Only fat slow, smart kids who have no ego (because they aren’t spoiled) will willingly play OL with no complaint.  

Multiply that situation over the years to elite level of NFL and the physical talent gap between the average DL and an OL is immense.  

That beings said you will  find over the years how it ends up is the OL are almost always the smartest, best humans on any team.  Why I love them so much.

Humble people are easy to love.  

 

 

I think the recent emphasis on concussions play a major part in the dropoff in talent as well.

[dll2000]

13 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I think the recent emphasis on concussions play a major part in the dropoff in talent as well.

That is overall dropoff in participation and I don't believe that has been felt at NFL level yet.

That is still like 5 - 10 years away.

There is still enough youth and high school participation nation wide that it shouldnt be much of a noticeable issue on the field.

The real problem will come in drop in TV ratings 15 - 30 years from now. 

People that played game, or who grew up with those who did, are much more likely to be die hard fans than people who only ever watched.

None of kids in my immediate neighborhood either watch or play football.  That would have never been true 10 years ago.  10 years ago most of boys played at least until 12 when it got too hard.  

In my youth group at Church which is like 100 kids 6th grade through 12th of both genders - I would say maybe like 2% of the boys play football and maybe like 3-4% of all the kids overall watch it.   Only like 3 are playing that I know of.  

Most boys play a private activity (martial arts, gymnastics, etc.) then basketball and/or soccer and lastly football.

When I was I kid most boys who could played football, everybody wanted to, and 98% watched it. 

 

 

 

 

[AZBearsFan]

3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

My theory is he practically worships Andy Reid and this is way Andy Reid did it with Mahomes therefore this is way Nagy should do it with Fields.

I think that’s what he wants, but I also think he’s already realized that Andy Dalton isn’t 2017 Alex Smith too. Don’t think for a minute that he and his squad getting booed mercilessly at home by 60k fans week 2 if Dalton is starting (especially if it follows an underwhelming offensive performance week 1) won’t factor in here either. He shouldn’t bow to the wants and whims of the masses, but that’s a tough line to hold too especially when you’re doing so with Andy frickin’ Dalton. 

[soulman]

3 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

The last thing I care about in preseason is winning or losing. Box scores are meaningless. You can't use preseason as a way to judge how a team will play in the regular season, and we've seen too many examples as to why.

Yeah, the penalties were frustrating. Not just the absurd amount but level of stupidity of some of them at the wrong time and this falls solely on the coaching staff...absolutely... I agree wholeheartedly with this.

But I'm not judging by the box score.  I'm judging by what my eyes have seen.

Like a guy who a week ago was our best hope at LT getting pancaked on a pass rush by a backup edge rusher he probably outweighs by 60-70lbs.  Other OL who were so lost about their assignment they ended up blocking no one and ended the play just standing around looking confused.

Then add in drops on perfectly thrown passes and drive ending penalties before the drive ever got started.  It was an incredibly sloppy game overall.  Getting beat because the other guys are that much better is one thing but helping them by beating yourself has been a trademark of Nagy coached teams for two years now.

Isn't it time for a change?

[soulman]

5 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Dalton has no rope, and no commitment beyond week 1 starter from Nagy. For all of his statements about Dalton, Nagy can’t keep from busting all over himself whenever he talks about Fields. Been that way since draft day, and has only grown since TC has confirmed basically everything suspected about him coming in. The starters, who haven’t really even played with Fields yet, already gush about him. They talk about Dalton’s professional approach, but they rave about Fields’ talent. It’s the NFL - talent wins.

Today Nagy said production and wins will drive who plays. This is the same guy who benched 2-0 Mitch last year for Foles after 2.5 bad quarters against Atlanta. Foles dreams about being Fields ability-wise, and Nagy is seemingly itching for a reason to drop his commitment to Dalton running with the 1s. Nagy was hired to groom Mitch - the only commitment he has to Dalton is a promise made before Fields was on the roster, with Fields being a guy he and Pace collaborated to target and acquire in the draft by any reasonable means. Moving to Fields from Dalton should 100% be the easier change to make for him without question. 

My guess? Nagy is following a 2017 QB plan, but Andy Dalton isn’t playing the role of Alex Smith. He’s starring as Tom Savage. Once he struggles, he’s out. A “Fields Package” will be a fixture until then to get him real reps with the 1s during the week and on Sundays without giving him “starter reps” in practice.

I’m no proponent of finding Fields a “soft” first start - I think that’s chicken **** and I don’t think Fields needs “protection” from the SNF spotlight or from Aaron Donald - but if that’s Nagy’s plan it makes all the sense in the world for that to be week 2 at home against the Bengals. Home opener. Fanfare will be insane. Weather should be good. Nagy gets to save Dalton the boos he himself didn’t really earn anyway. Wins all around. Then first road game would be week 3 at Cleveland, a tough opponent for sure but also just down the road from where Fields starred at OSU. Then week 4 against the Lions. 

Nice script you've written but the producers want to know if it's based on a true story or simply a dramatic representation based on a "fairy tale" you read somewhere.  😉  LOL

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, AZBearsFan said:

I think that’s what he wants, but I also think he’s already realized that Andy Dalton isn’t 2017 Alex Smith too. Don’t think for a minute that he and his squad getting booed mercilessly at home by 60k fans week 2 if Dalton is starting (especially if it follows an underwhelming offensive performance week 1) won’t factor in here either. He shouldn’t bow to the wants and whims of the masses, but that’s a tough line to hold too especially when you’re doing so with Andy frickin’ Dalton. 

60k booing and chanting for long periods and throughout games is not easy to withstand.

Team will fold.   He will lose locker room.  Etc.

It is a real and tangible thing when it is not short lived.  Not something you just tune out.