Trevor Lawrence is looking like a bad pick for the Jags

[ronjon1990]

3 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Jaguars have talented pass catchers in Marvin Jones, DJ Chark and Lavishka Shenault. I get they haven't been good/healthy this year, but if the Jags threw them out each could get 900+ yards on another team if healthy next year.

Maybe a bit hyperbolic as there's only like 4 total 900+ yard seasons between the 3 of them, but your point stands- they're not THAT untalented. 

They're not Houston bad in terms of weapons. 

[Scoundrel]

20 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Maybe a bit hyperbolic as there's only like 4 total 900+ yard seasons between the 3 of them, but your point stands- they're not THAT untalented. 

They're not Houston bad in terms of weapons. 

I’d take Brandin Cooks over all the weapons he’s had this year 

[.Buzz]

Chark has been out since damn near the beginning of the season.

Marvin Jones is clearly showing his age at this point. He can’t separate.

Shenault shouldn’t even be mentioned with the above two players. Unless we’re just talking highly of him due to being a 2nd round pick, he’s shown very little. Poor hands, poor route running. 
 

Treadwell has legitimately been (and looked) like the best receiver on the team since he got his role a handful of weeks ago.

[NYRaider]

Trevor do the right thing, destroy the Colts and secure the Raiders will make the playoffs.

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, Scoundrel said:

I’d take Brandin Cooks over all the weapons he’s had this year 

So would I.

But Cooks is literally the only thing Houston has. 

His production is more a testament to his own skill than anything else. Cooks is probably a top 5-7 WR in the league if he could ever get settled in somewhere and be used as the primary target. 

Still, hard to pick 1 guy over a couple or more absent absolutely transcendental talent.

[KhanYouDigIt]

2 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

So would I.

But Cooks is literally the only thing Houston has. 

His production is more a testament to his own skill than anything else. Cooks is probably a top 5-7 WR in the league if he could ever get settled in somewhere and be used as the primary target. 

Still, hard to pick 1 guy over a couple or more absent absolutely transcendental talent.

When was the last time a Jags WR ever did this? I would trade the whole Jags WR room for Cooks and I still don’t think that would be enough.

[ronjon1990]

1 minute ago, KhanYouDigIt said:

When was the last time a Jags WR ever did this? I would trade the whole Jags WR room for Cooks and I still don’t think that would be enough.

If we're playing the hyperbole game, so would I. 

I'd trade every WR we have other than Renfrow, I'd toss in Josh Jacobs and Foster Moreau too just for good measure, if the Raiders could get their hands on Brandin Cooks. Like I said, he's probably a top 5-7 receiver in the league.

That doesn't negate the fact that the rest of the Texans skill position players are absolute garbage. And if anyone still believes that 1 player magically transforms a team, I don't know what to tell you. Trevor Lawrence + Cooks + just 8 other guys on the field = winning? That's ludicrous. 

If I'm building a team up, I take Marvin Jones and Shenault over a single WR. I certainly take Jones, Shenault, and Treadwell (as he's currently playing) over a single WR. Unless you're running an offense with 1 WR on the field, 2 ok enough WRs are better than one. Calvin Johnson was arguably the best WR ever, and look how it worked out for Detroit having only Calvin Johnson to throw to with any regularity. 

[.Buzz]

22 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

If we're playing the hyperbole game, so would I. 

I'd trade every WR we have other than Renfrow, I'd toss in Josh Jacobs and Foster Moreau too just for good measure, if the Raiders could get their hands on Brandin Cooks. Like I said, he's probably a top 5-7 receiver in the league.

That doesn't negate the fact that the rest of the Texans skill position players are absolute garbage. And if anyone still believes that 1 player magically transforms a team, I don't know what to tell you. Trevor Lawrence + Cooks + just 8 other guys on the field = winning? That's ludicrous. 

If I'm building a team up, I take Marvin Jones and Shenault over a single WR. I certainly take Jones, Shenault, and Treadwell (as he's currently playing) over a single WR. Unless you're running an offense with 1 WR on the field, 2 ok enough WRs are better than one. Calvin Johnson was arguably the best WR ever, and look how it worked out for Detroit having only Calvin Johnson to throw to with any regularity. 

To be fair, Lawrence early in the year (despite the coaching staff sabotaging JRobs touches) when he had Chark had this offense looking much more competent. Having a guy at the top who is at least respectable and can take the top off opens up some things. 
 

But no, Cooks alone doesn’t transform this offense or all the sudden make this look like a good unit.

[1ForTheThumb]

On 1/3/2022 at 6:33 PM, Uncle Buck said:

How do you think Mac Jones would have done if they had switched teams yesterday?  Put him on the Jaguars and Trevor on the Patriots.  How many points would he have put up on the board?  I think I know how many.

Never once denied that he has weapons. But let's not act like Mac Jones was throwing to world beaters out there on Sunday. 

[.Buzz]

30 minutes ago, 1ForTheThumb said:

Never once denied that he has weapons. But let's not act like Mac Jones was throwing to world beaters out there on Sunday. 

Personally the weapons aren’t even the thing for me because I don’t think NE’s receiver room is that great (although Henry/Jonnu is a very talented TE room).

Has more to do with the coaching staff you have up there. You clearly have an identity with that OL/running game and a coaching staff thats putting Mac in a system that fits him perfectly. That’s not even taking anything away from Mac, that’s just an elite staff doing what you’re supposed to be doing.

[1ForTheThumb]

26 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Personally the weapons aren’t even the thing for me because I don’t think NE’s receiver room is that great (although Henry/Jonnu is a very talented TE room).

Has more to do with the coaching staff you have up there. You clearly have an identity with that OL/running game and a coaching staff thats putting Mac in a system that fits him perfectly. That’s not even taking anything away from Mac, that’s just an elite staff doing what you’re supposed to be doing.

For sure. Undeniable that he's in a better situation and they set things up well for him to succeed. The line and running game is good (though the OL really struggled at the beginning of the year and he still performed well) but he doesn't have much in the passing game at all. Bourne and Meyers are solid role receivers, but Agholor has been useless, Jonnu hasn't been a good signing, etc. He does have a nice chemistry with Henry, but aside from that we just had to call up someone from the practice squad because Harry has been that useless.

I'm excited to see what Mac can do with some legitimate talent at WR. I just pray that Belichick agrees that it is a huge need.

[.Buzz]

Just now, 1ForTheThumb said:

For sure. Undeniable that he's in a better situation and they set things up well for him to succeed. The line and running game is good (though the OL really struggled at the beginning of the year and he still performed well) but he doesn't have much in the passing game at all. Bourne and Meyers are solid role receivers, but Agholor has been useless, Jonnu hasn't been a good signing, etc. He does have a nice chemistry with Henry, but aside from that we just had to call up someone from the practice squad because Harry has been that useless.

I'm excited to see what Mac can do with some legitimate talent at WR. I just pray that Belichick agrees that it is a huge need.

I really don’t get what’s going on with Jonnu. That guy was a game wrecker in Tennessee and like my top overall target that I hope we went after in FA last year.

For Mac’s sake I really hope McDaniels stays there for at least another year or two. Just so good at putting an offense around the QBs strengths.

[notthatbluestuff]

1 minute ago, 1ForTheThumb said:

For sure. Undeniable that he's in a better situation and they set things up well for him to succeed. The line and running game is good (though the OL really struggled at the beginning of the year and he still performed well) but he doesn't have much in the passing game at all. Bourne and Meyers are solid role receivers, but Agholor has been useless, Jonnu hasn't been a good signing, etc. He does have a nice chemistry with Henry, but aside from that we just had to call up someone from the practice squad because Harry has been that useless.

Take how you feel about Agholor and Harry, then remove the connection with Henry (or any decent TE), then remove the good running game, then remove the Josh McDaniels offense and the Bill Belichick-coached organization. That's the situation Lawrence is in. 

[Dr A W Niloc]

30 minutes ago, notthatbluestuff said:

Take how you feel about Agholor and Harry, then remove the connection with Henry (or any decent TE), then remove the good running game, then remove the Josh McDaniels offense and the Bill Belichick-coached organization. That's the situation Lawrence is in. 

Not until you remove the OTs and any semblance of a defense.

[Broncofan]

Terrible coaches (Meyer/Bevell).

Terrible OL.

Terrible WR's. 

Here's the thing - ppl can debate how bad 1 of those units is compared to other teams.   How many teams have all 3 problems?    The answer:   none (Jets are close, OC is terrible, but at least their OL has clear building blocks, and Elijah Moore is going to be a star).

It's not like the impact of the 3 aren't incremental.  It's a problem if you have 1 of the 3 issues.    It's a disaster if you have 2 of the 3.   All 3?  It's apocalyptic.   A good QB can overcome 1 problem, you need a great QB to overcome 2...and it's iffy.  3?   I haven't seen any QB's overcome all 3.  Add in a rookie, and the struggles are not surprising at all.

Now, let's be clear - I'm not absolving Lawrence.   His failure to recognize coverage with certain zone packages, is really mystifying, it speaks to less polish than we thought he had coming out of Clemson.      I'm also VERY worried that with GM Trent Baalke, the talent / coaching problems aren't going to go away quickly, either (whereas in NY, at least I think the GM Joe Douglas has things on the right track for the most part).

I'm worried for Lawrence because Khan/Baalke can re-create the same scenario next year.  And yes, his read/recognition vs. zone needs more work that I thought.  But the whole bust narrative on Lawrence here is total hyperbole.   It's year 1.   In an apocalyptic situation.   Not really worried about the player himself - only that the situation may remain apocalyptic next year.   

Edited January 5, 2022 by Broncofan