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Is It Time for A QB Change?


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5 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Please send him packing. Put the poor guy out of his misery. As long as the Lions surround their QBs with crap, they're not going to get much out of the position. If they want better next year, go get some damn WRs and improve the OL (which, to be fair, probably would have been good if not for the injuries to Ragnow and Decker).

Or this staff has mismanaged the QB position baddly. How would we ever know what we have with Goff/Boyle throwing the ball. Lions should have won the last two games really but specifically the QB play has been that bad. Historically bad.

You paraded in here all summer like Goff was an above average QB, got proven wrong, way wrong, SO wrong. (So far)But, Hell neither guy can hit a player in stride beyond 15-20 yards so, who knows what we have honestly at WR. Not too many QB's would of come in and put up good numbers, but enough to win, I don't doubt at all I personally could of signed someone better than Blough/Boyle to back up Goff. Goff got hurt too, if he wasn't hurt Lions "MIGHT" of won those games. It's historically bad QB play slowing the offense now, doesn't help WR are average/below average but even average/bad QB's over come that in this league. Look at Washington and the JETS. They can do...SOMETHING and they don't have world beaters at WR/QB.

Holmes has a chance to make big changes next year, it'll be his most important off-season maybe ever in his career. It's going to set the table for the next 3-4 years.

I don't hate Dan Campbell too bad. Team plays hard, and the defense has been really tough for how bad they are. They(Defense) play hard, make plays. A few better players and I think the defense with this staff can be something.

Edited by SimbaWho
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Admittedly, I’ve only watched the first two games this year. I’ve got better things to do with my time than to watch this garbage. But it seems like, from reading beat writers and forum posts, that it’s one of those circular arguments. Is Goff that bad, or are the Wr that bad? If we have better wr we could better evaluate Goff. If we had better qb play, we could better evaluate the wr. The one thing I think everyone agrees on, is our WR need to be improved. We also need to get some competent backups at qb. Blough and Boyle are not it. Goff has won before, and from the sounds of last game, is head and shoulders better than Boyle.

I’m still not confident in Holmes. I’m giving Campbell a pass even with the super conservative play calling. When you have no confidence in your passing game, and you’re putting the best players on the field, as this seems evident after yesterdays game from the sounds of it, you don’t have a choice.

one thing the lions management has been able to do consistently for the past 20 years is to take the previous regimes team, and make it worse.

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1 hour ago, LionArkie said:

Admittedly, I’ve only watched the first two games this year. I’ve got better things to do with my time than to watch this garbage. But it seems like, from reading beat writers and forum posts, that it’s one of those circular arguments. Is Goff that bad, or are the Wr that bad? If we have better wr we could better evaluate Goff. If we had better qb play, we could better evaluate the wr. The one thing I think everyone agrees on, is our WR need to be improved. We also need to get some competent backups at qb. Blough and Boyle are not it. Goff has won before, and from the sounds of last game, is head and shoulders better than Boyle.

I’m still not confident in Holmes. I’m giving Campbell a pass even with the super conservative play calling. When you have no confidence in your passing game, and you’re putting the best players on the field, as this seems evident after yesterdays game from the sounds of it, you don’t have a choice.

one thing the lions management has been able to do consistently for the past 20 years is to take the previous regimes team, and make it worse.

I think the key to that last line is that I think that was the intent this year.  The previous regime had a lot of bad contracts, and when Stafford asked to be traded, we didn't have a choice but to take a step back.  

Next year is a huge year for Holmes.  I think he found some solid players this year in the draft and I agree with his building the team inside out.  His approach to WR was a big bust between his signings as well as his trading for Benson.  We knew it was a weakness going into the year and then when your top two WRs get hurt its even more of a weakness.  I don't think there is any argument that Goff is throwing to one of the worst groups of WR ever assembled.  Raymond is his top option and he is a 27 year old trying to breakout.  Hw would likely not make most rosters in the league. ARSB is ok but isn't ready to lead a team.  

I know we are bad but I still don't think we are all that far off from being a decent team.  We have the assets to do it with the Stafford trade so Holmes and Dorsey need to show their ability to find talent and Lynn and Staley need to figure out how to get the offense going. 

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I don’t really disagree. But I look at the trade of Stafford. Giving him to the rams instead of Carolina. Hindsight is always great, but we were going to get a top 10 pick vs 2 low first round picks. I’ve often wondered if passing on Fields was going to bite us. What if we landed Sewell and Fields, and had bridgewater as a stop gap? By not doing this, Holmes has to hit on his low end first rounds. This is one of the things I will always judge Holmes on. It was good of them to send Stafford where he wanted, but we will see if it was the best decision for the Lions getting better. Getting better was what Holmes was hired to do.

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Just now, LionArkie said:

I don’t really disagree. But I look at the trade of Stafford. Giving him to the rams instead of Carolina. Hindsight is always great, but we were going to get a top 10 pick vs 2 low first round picks. I’ve often wondered if passing on Fields was going to bite us. What if we landed Sewell and Fields, and had bridgewater as a stop gap? By not doing this, Holmes has to hit on his low end first rounds. This is one of the things I will always judge Holmes on. It was good of them to send Stafford where he wanted, but we will see if it was the best decision for the Lions getting better. Getting better was what Holmes was hired to do.

The Lions have already had a lot of bad publicity over the past few years: Losing seasons, constant turnover at HC/GM positions, spats with legendary players (Sanders, Calvin > still ongoing). Trying to turn a page, I don't know if you do that by trading him to a team that he does not want to go to. All we would be doing is creating another scenario where there's a former player that gave us his all who has an issue with ownership/management. Stafford would have gone to Carolina and played well there but we would have heard stories about how he wanted to be in LA and there was a serious offer sent out but the Lions opted to take the Panthers deal for the higher picks. It would have been another SOL news cycle. 

If we're trying to change the culture and start off on the right foot under new(ish) ownership in Sheila; new GM in Brad Holmes; and new HC in Dan Campbell, you don't accomplish that by alienating the positive elements from your past. 

This is a tear down/rebuild year. We all knew it going in. 

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57 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

The Lions have already had a lot of bad publicity over the past few years: Losing seasons, constant turnover at HC/GM positions, spats with legendary players (Sanders, Calvin > still ongoing). Trying to turn a page, I don't know if you do that by trading him to a team that he does not want to go to. All we would be doing is creating another scenario where there's a former player that gave us his all who has an issue with ownership/management. Stafford would have gone to Carolina and played well there but we would have heard stories about how he wanted to be in LA and there was a serious offer sent out but the Lions opted to take the Panthers deal for the higher picks. It would have been another SOL news cycle. 

If we're trying to change the culture and start off on the right foot under new(ish) ownership in Sheila; new GM in Brad Holmes; and new HC in Dan Campbell, you don't accomplish that by alienating the positive elements from your past. 

This is a tear down/rebuild year. We all knew it going in. 

Yeah, I don't know if I agree. There is a difference between sending a guy on a business deal to a team we only assume he wanted to go to. And a guy not fulfilling his contract and the team taking a portion of the signing bonus away.  In the end, if the Lions create a winner the fans won't say, "yeah we're good, but we should have sent him to LAR. Screw winning, who wants that?". There is also some who think Stafford preferred LAR, but didn't dismiss Carolina. That is all speculation. Even if that is the case, it is a business and Stafford requested the trade, which they honored. To me it is pretty different.

I've said since the beginning, we will see what Holmes does with the two late round picks, but I don't think it would have been nearly as good of a return as Sewell, Fields (speculating he would be the pick), and Bridgewater.

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15 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Yeah, I don't know if I agree. There is a difference between sending a guy on a business deal to a team we only assume he wanted to go to. And a guy not fulfilling his contract and the team taking a portion of the signing bonus away.  In the end, if the Lions create a winner the fans won't say, "yeah we're good, but we should have sent him to LAR. Screw winning, who wants that?". There is also some who think Stafford preferred LAR, but didn't dismiss Carolina. That is all speculation. Even if that is the case, it is a business and Stafford requested the trade, which they honored. To me it is pretty different.

I've said since the beginning, we will see what Holmes does with the two late round picks, but I don't think it would have been nearly as good of a return as Sewell, Fields (speculating he would be the pick), and Bridgewater.

I agree the situations are different, I also don't think it was strictly due to Stafford's desires.  The value at the time was similar.  The question is do you want a known quality pick or quantity with the potential for them to be quality picks.  Sure it would be great to have Sewell and Fields/Parsons/Horn but I also like having multiple first round picks the next couple of years.  If we were that high on our evaluation of Fields, we would have drafted him over Sewell, but obviously they didn't see enough to pull the trigger.  This gives us the chance to move around in the draft if need or just add multiple players of a slightly lower talent level.  When building a team void of talent, having multiple first round picks is huge.  

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22 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I agree the situations are different, I also don't think it was strictly due to Stafford's desires.  The value at the time was similar.  The question is do you want a known quality pick or quantity with the potential for them to be quality picks.  Sure it would be great to have Sewell and Fields/Parsons/Horn but I also like having multiple first round picks the next couple of years.  If we were that high on our evaluation of Fields, we would have drafted him over Sewell, but obviously they didn't see enough to pull the trigger.  This gives us the chance to move around in the draft if need or just add multiple players of a slightly lower talent level.  When building a team void of talent, having multiple first round picks is huge.  

Agreed. But once again, it comes down to what they do with the picks. If they use it to move up then fine.  If it works out fine. But I believe there is a significant success rate difference between top 10 picks and the end of the first round. Quantity isn't necessarily better than quality.  I get in a rebuild you want multiple picks.  But I was high on Fields. I think Sewell was the right pick. Even if Fields ends up being a hall of famer, Sewell was the right pick.  But with the talent there at qb last year in the draft and the chance to get one of them, and a backup/starter in Bridgewater makes the team better in my mind over the long haul. I was just pretty high on Fields.

So as Simba said, it really is going to come down to what Holmes does this offseason. But this far, I'm not overly optimistic.

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Is It Time for A QB Change?

Not yet.  Teams have only so much draft capital and cap space.  A new QB may be a  priority but not the  priority.

This team needs to concentrate on defense.  No evaluation of a new, old or prospective Lions QB will be reliable until there are quality WRs.  Thus, QB isn't even the priority on offense.  Tight End and OL are good--when healthy--and there is an embarrassment of riches at RB (something the team could showcase as trade bait).

That said, there is no reason to deny Tim Boyle a shot.  What has the team got to lose?

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11 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Please send him packing. Put the poor guy out of his misery. As long as the Lions surround their QBs with crap, they're not going to get much out of the position. If they want better next year, go get some damn WRs and improve the OL (which, to be fair, probably would have been good if not for the injuries to Ragnow and Decker).

Jrry32 what’s the point of improving the WR group if the QB can’t get them the ball? Guys wide open that the QB doesn’t see or over throws. Or poor decisions with under thrown balls. 

The Lions could have three or four standout receivers and it simply wouldn’t matter. You could give Goff or Boyle, CJ in his prime and they simply couldn’t get him the ball. 

The only reason Goff has a job was to facilitate the Stafford trade. As soon as it’s financially viable he WILL be put out of his misery and if he finds work it will be as a backup.

Its pretty obvious why Boyle has sat on the bench. He can’t throw the ball more than four yards accurately. 

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3 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

Jrry32 what’s the point of improving the WR group if the QB can’t get them the ball? Guys wide open that the QB doesn’t see or over throws. Or poor decisions with under thrown balls. 

The Lions could have three or four standout receivers and it simply wouldn’t matter. You could give Goff or Boyle, CJ in his prime and they simply couldn’t get him the ball. 

The only reason Goff has a job was to facilitate the Stafford trade. As soon as it’s financially viable he WILL be put out of his misery and if he finds work it will be as a backup.

Its pretty obvious why Boyle has sat on the bench. He can’t throw the ball more than four yards accurately. 

Goff was able to get Robert Woods, Brandin Cooks, and Cooper Kupp the ball. Something tells me that he could get Calvin Johnson the ball. I hope the Lions do get rid of him after this year. Dude doesn't have the talent to lift the worst WR corp in the NFL and a shaky OL.

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9 hours ago, SimbaWho said:

You paraded in here all summer like Goff was an above average QB, got proven wrong, way wrong, SO wrong. (So far)But, Hell neither guy can hit a player in stride beyond 15-20 yards so, who knows what we have honestly at WR.

We know what you have at WR. Outside of St. Brown, all these other dudes were on other NFL squads (except Cephus, who was your #4 WR last year, but he's hurt now anyways). Goff was a below average QB in 2020. I never hid that fact. He didn't play well. Before that, he was above average. I also didn't think the Lions would have such a terrible offense. At that point in time, they had a very good OL on paper, a solid running game, Hockenson, and some deep threats at WR. But injuries hit and hit hard. In any case, your WR corp sucks. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Goff isn't a good enough QB to elevate this supporting cast. It would be better for all involved if the Lions got rid of him.

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56 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

We know what you have at WR. Outside of St. Brown, all these other dudes were on other NFL squads (except Cephus, who was your #4 WR last year, but he's hurt now anyways). Goff was a below average QB in 2020. I never hid that fact. He didn't play well. Before that, he was above average. I also didn't think the Lions would have such a terrible offense. At that point in time, they had a very good OL on paper, a solid running game, Hockenson, and some deep threats at WR. But injuries hit and hit hard. In any case, your WR corp sucks. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Goff isn't a good enough QB to elevate this supporting cast. It would be better for all involved if the Lions got rid of him.

We know what WE have at WR. Outside of St. Brown, all these other dudes were on other NFL squads (except Cephus, who was OUR #4 WR last year, but he's hurt now anyways). 

You're in this now.... 

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15 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Goff was able to get Robert Woods, Brandin Cooks, and Cooper Kupp the ball. Something tells me that he could get Calvin Johnson the ball. I hope the Lions do get rid of him after this year. Dude doesn't have the talent to lift the worst WR corp in the NFL and a shaky OL.

Well... I'll point out those guys are doing much better with Goff gone and Goff floundering hard. Obvioulsy someone situations are way different but maybe Goff was supported by the team and now he's exposed for what he is at QB. Like the first year he was a Ram and you had no Oline/run game/WR's or defense.

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