2021 GDT Week #12 Steelers Vs. Bengals

[43M]

11 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I've started to blame Tomlin too.  Just criticizing the fact that things that Tomlin is getting blamed for (bad players playing bad) isn't in his control.

 

Basically at this point it's going like this:

Others - Fire Tomlin, a bad roster is playing bad!

Me - Well a bad roster isn't on Tomlin, it's on others.  Being flat and not trying new things is Tomlins problem.

Others - Colbert is great! Not his fault.

1)  I literally havent seen anyone heap praise on Colbert while bashing Tomlin.   Seems needlessly hyperbolic...or maybe I missed it.

2)   Tomlin has a major hand in putting the roster together.    Not sure how you can dismiss that.   Obviously Im not saying he deserves more blame than Colbert, but he deserves his share.

3)  Im not taking sides.    Go back and read my Spinning Tires offseason thread from January....

...most of what I said has held up, and I said I felt we needed a change from BOTH Colbert and Tomlin, on top of extensive changes.

We can argue whose to blame for what all day, but does it matter?    The failures are widespread and on every level.

Hell, if it was possible, Id want Art II fired too.

Bottom line....this team isnt going anywhere until there are significant changes....on every level of the organization.

[warfelg]

6 minutes ago, 43M said:

We can argue whose to blame for what all day, but does it matter?    The failures are widespread and on every level.

And that's my point, it's widespread issues yet people seem to get a hardon to argue when you want to say someone other than Tomlin is at fault too.

You and I have been right about this season. (and yes I was being hyperbolic about the Colbert stuff because everything is excuses for him)

[warfelg]

Basically (again) I see this going 1 of 3 ways:

Way 1 - Colbert and Tomlin are back next year, Ben decides he wants to come back, and because Tombert is weak when it comes to Ben they run out this same sad excuse for a team.

Way 2 - Colbert and Tomin are back next year, Ben decides to retire, and we end up retooling on the fly without ever bottoming out by getting lucky with a bigger name vet QB wanting to come here.

Way 3 - You clean house completely and start over.  Ben, Colbert, Tomlin, Coordinators; heck maybe you even trade away some older players you have under contract (Tuitt, Heyward most notable) for whatever you can get.

 

I'm not sure that keeping one or the other and trying to half *** a rebuild is the right way.  The only one I can see staying if given the choice is Tomlin because Colbert knows he can get it done without a more established Ben, I think Tomlin wants to prove that he wasn't the one holding the team back.

[43M]

19 minutes ago, warfelg said:

And that's my point, it's widespread issues yet people seem to get a hardon to argue when you want to say someone other than Tomlin is at fault too.

You and I have been right about this season. (and yes I was being hyperbolic about the Colbert stuff because everything is excuses for him)

Ive dealt with my share of apologists over the years for Tomlin, Colbert and Ben.   At times, I used to even be one to a smaller extent than some.

However, it doesnt matter.

No one who understands whats going on can make excuses for any of them.   All of their failures are objective and well documented.

Yes, I agree the pandemic cap hurt, and Ive admitted there was some major bad luck involved, but it didnt create the issues we are having....it just magnified them.

Im not saying fans should demand their jobs....but there absolutely needs to be more accountability and more than just "tweaks".    

People dont have to agree with you and I that we need to go into rebuild mode....but I dont see how anyone can honestly say we arent far from where we need to be.

 

[warfelg]

4 minutes ago, 43M said:

People dont have to agree with you and I that we need to go into rebuild mode....but I dont see how anyone can honestly say we arent far from where we need to be.

Sorry I know I'm picking a small part, but that's why when I see "Fire Tomin" without anything in, that's why I question it.  With this same roster what coach makes it good?  I know I said it enough over the offseason, this was a fine year to move on from Ben.  Take the cap hit when we're not able to do much anyways and move on.  But people celebrated it because "with Ben there's a chance".  

[43M]

56 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Sorry I know I'm picking a small part, but that's why when I see "Fire Tomin" without anything in, that's why I question it.  With this same roster what coach makes it good?  I know I said it enough over the offseason, this was a fine year to move on from Ben.  Take the cap hit when we're not able to do much anyways and move on.  But people celebrated it because "with Ben there's a chance".  

I agree with most of this, but my issues with Tomlin go much deeper than just this year or our current record.

Ive seen this team suffer from too many of the same issues and making the same mistakes and poor decisions year after year for the last decade.   Not every one is completely on Tomlin, but he has a hand in all of them.   He still feels like a young coach learning the ins and outs of being an NFL head coach rather than the 15 year vet head coach he actually is.

Thats a big problem IMO.

Edited November 30, 2021 by 43M

[CKSteeler]

I personally can't wait until some people get their chance to see this team post-Ben. When we finally get to see Tomlin put his full imprint on the team. 

[warfelg]

8 hours ago, 43M said:

I agree with most of this, but my issues with Tomlin go much deeper than just this year or our current record.

Ive seen this team suffer from too many of the same issues and making the same mistakes and poor decisions year after year for the last decade.   Not every one is completely on Tomlin, but he has a hand in all of them.   He still feels like a young coach learning the ins and outs of being an NFL head coach rather than the 15 year vet head coach he actually is.

Thats a big problem IMO.

Oh I don’t disagree with most of that. My defense to some of it is there’s really no such thing as a perfect coach and I think at times as fans we can get too locked into our own coaches faults and forget the good. The biggest one that still bugs me with Tomlin is his strange risk/reward decision making. 

EDIT:

My basic point of this is if you want Tomlin fired for football reasons that are actually a problem with coaching then I'm good with that.  The decision making, the random dog housing, the refusal to try new things.  All of that is good with me.  Do it.  The new coach is going to have flaws too, so be careful what you wish for there would be my statement on it.

What I don't agree with is the "Fire Tomlin because of playoff loses" or "Hasn't won a Super Bowl in over a decade".  First off the rosters haven't been that good to be a Super Bowl winner.  Even in the Killer B era the hope with the defense was "get that one stop" and the offense was "put up some points every drive".  That was the Chiefs last year and it didn't work out (and the only reason they got there was they had a QB playing out of his mind).  

So, if you feel that the losses are on Tomlin, and you think the roster has been good; and Tomin just has too much input, I got an easy solution.  Colbert should tell Tomlin he's going to have less power than before on roster decisions.
 

On another note, it will be interesting to see who buys this:

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by warfelg

[MOSteelers56]

9 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

I personally can't wait until some people get their chance to see this team post-Ben. When we finally get to see Tomlin put his full imprint on the team. 

We're not going to improve until it happens, so I'm excited for it too. Either Tomlin craps the bed or he doesn't. Either way, I'm tired of the treadmill. 

[43M]

Ben is garbage now, so its not like he is doing Tomlin any favors.

 

[warfelg]

46 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

We're not going to improve until it happens, so I'm excited for it too. Either Tomlin craps the bed or he doesn't. Either way, I'm tired of the treadmill. 

This is what the NFL owners asked for though.  Rookie contract caps means getting a good QB puts you in purgatory.

Since the NFL rookie wage scale went into effect you had the following teams with a rookie wage QB make the super bowl: Seattle (x2), Carolina, Philadelphia, LA Rams, KC (x2), SF.

Teams with a non-rookie contract QB to win: New York Giants, New England Patriots, Denver Broncos, New England Patriots, Tampa Bay.  Mind you 3 of those times was Tom Brady, who notoriously takes massive under value contracts.

Note - I left Green Bay and Baltimore out because while Rodgers and Flacco were on rookie contracts, they weren't limited; however, they were later 1st round picks so weren't making big money.

Before that, Big Ben and Tom Brady winning on their rookie contracts were "unheardof" things that happened.  So because of the rookie wage scale, IMO, the NFL has invited this spot where having a good QB impairs your ability to win.

I'm waiting for the first savy GM who starts this tread:

Build a strong team, draft a late 1st option QB (like Lamar), then near the end of his contract, rather than pay him, trade him for a 1st and multiple 2nds/3rds.  Draft a new option QB.  Keep the QB position on rookie contracts and continually spend to have great players everywhere else.

[MOSteelers56]

I thought the Rams were going to do that exact plan with Goff. They paid him instead, though. I think that's the ticket to win. I think it's much easier said than done, though. Good QBs aren't growing on trees. 

[warfelg]

 

 

[warfelg]

 

[warfelg]