2021 GDT Week #12 Steelers Vs. Bengals

[43M]

8 minutes ago, warfelg said:

So you knew DDC had something wrong but you planned nothing.  That's not good roster management.

Hell even if you want to say that about Williams, they drafted someone to replace him and still felt it was a need to bring in someone and despite that someone sucking the drafted guy still isn't good enough to get a hat.

 

My expectation of depth is you shouldn't need a coach to admit they have to completely change their play calling because of a few injuries.  My expectation of depth is being able to comfortably put 3 CB's on the field in the first place.  My expectation of depth would be to comfortably rotate out a DL for a series in the first place.  We couldn't even do that before.  While you were all excited about the roster, some of us (me and @43M most vocally) stated the roster had major concerns.

 

So I'll ask this again:

If KC is going to get the benefit of the doubt for injuries, guys retiring, the cap causing player problems....why aren't you giving Tomlin the benefit of the doubt when he's the one having to deal with the backups and emergency plans not being good enough?  

Just to point out a few things....

1)   As stated, Tomlin gets more heat because he is a far bigger face of the team than Colbert.   Most fans, Id wager, dont even really know who Colbert is or what he does.

2)   While Colbert absolutely deserves blame and should be accountable, Tomlin has MUCH more reach than him in drafting players and building the roster than Colbert has in coaching decisions.   

3)   In slight defense of both Colbert AND Tomlin, you cant necessarily plan for the number of things that went wrong for us this past offseason.    No amount of planning could have prepared them for losing 4 starting  Olineman in one offseason, or a pandemic affecting the cap so much at the worst possible time.

HOWEVER, clinging to Ben and other aging, declining, highly paid players has been an issue for awhile now.   Poor planning and short-sightedness dating back YEARS is the bigger issue.   The 2021 offseason just exasperated an already bad situation and magnified our issues tenfold.

[jebrick]

@warfelgDo you really want to look into Cleveland's picks from 2015-2020?

2015  12 pick in the draft and goose egged it- Danny Shelton, Cam Erving, Nate Orchard, Duke Johnson are the top 4 picks

2016 - 14 picks in this draft.  Joe Schobert  the only one worth a damm.  Corey Coleman, Emmanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, Shon Coleman,

2017 #1 overall pick Myles Garrett, Jabrill Peppers, David Njoku

2018 #1 overall pick Baker Mayfield, Denzel Ward, Austin Corbett, Nick Chubb

2019 Greedy Williams ( finally had a pick in 2021), Sione Takitaki, Sheldrick Redwine,

2020 - Jedrick Wills, Grant Delpit, Jordan Elliott

 

Remember that the Browns, Bengals and Ravens  are not paying a franchise QB.

 

Do the Steelers need to clean out their scouting department?  Hell yes.  AR2 does not spend money and like his North Catholic boys ( which infest the scouting Dept.)  

The NFL is cyclical and the Steelers need to have a dip into the both third to get some real talent. 

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, 43M said:

Just to point out a few things....

1)   As stated, Tomlin gets more heat because he is a far bigger face of the team than Colbert.   Most fans, Id wager, dont even really know who Colbert is or what he does.

2)   While Colbert absolutely deserves blame and should be accountable, Tomlin has MUCH more reach than him in drafting players and building the roster than Colbert has in coaching decisions.   

While I don't disagree with (1), that's not why you fire Tomin though.  That's making someone the fall guy for the sake of making someone the fall guy.  And on (2) while I don't disagree, the annoyance I have is people are taking Colbert's blame and putting it on Tomlin.  Like, to me, Colbert should be able to tell Tomlin to take a back seat on some GM decisions.  I know we will never know who fully controls certain things, but like I said, I saw someone say it's Tomlin's fault his LT options are Moore and Okorafor.  

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3)   In slight defense of both Colbert AND Tomlin, you cant necessarily plan for the number of things that went wrong for us this past offseason.    No amount of planning could have prepared them for losing 4 starting  Olineman in one offseason, or a pandemic affecting the cap so much at the worst possible time.

Like to me the cap thing is just an excuse.  By this offseason all 32 teams knew it was going to happen.  All 32 teams had an idea what the cap was going to be.  What's the excuse for us having issues with it while other teams were up against it and aren't struggling as much?  As for something like the OL, then maybe they should have taken an OL in the 1st over Najee.  Maybe they should have signed an OG to a backloaded contract rather than bring back Juju.  I think the writing on the wall at least was out there for LT and C before FA/Draft.  RT we knew was up in air because Banner was coming off an ACL.  So why was the plan for those three positions a 3rd round pick, a guy who was crap at RT being it at LT, and a cast off in Haeg to cover for the guy with the ACL injury?  Like that's what frustrates me.  They knew some of these things were going to be a problem anyways and did nothing about it.  

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HOWEVER, clinging to Ben and other aging, declining, highly paid players has been an issue for awhile now.   Poor planning and short-sightedness dating back YEARS is the bigger issue.   The 2021 offseason just exasperated an already bad situation and magnified our issues tenfold.

This I knew we agree on big time.

[MOSteelers56]

I think everyone is rightfully upset with both Tomlin and Colbert to varying degrees. I don't think anyone is arguing that either of these guys is doing a fantastic job. I think most fans would be willing to ride with both longer, but I think realistically most people would be ok with moving on. The team is absolutely stagnant. Bad drafts, bad trades, bad signings, bad luck, bad development is all plaguing the team. What level of blame does Tomlin and Colbert deserve is the hinge. 

I would like to see what Tomlin and KC can do with a fresh start. I'd like to see what they can do without being stuck to a way over the hill QB that is taking up a huge chunk of cap. Would I be broken up if they don't get this chance? No. 

I think people see hot takes on twitter(or on local radio) and they come on here, where some fairly rational fans live, and start attacking the twitter idiots. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm an outsider, so it's a strong possibility.

[jebrick]

And when the stars of the team are complaining about how lacks the practices are, that does not come back to KC.

[warfelg]

1 minute ago, jebrick said:

@warfelgDo you really want to look into Cleveland's picks from 2015-2020?

2015  12 pick in the draft and goose egged it- Danny Shelton, Cam Erving, Nate Orchard, Duke Johnson are the top 4 picks

2016 - 14 picks in this draft.  Joe Schobert  the only one worth a damm.  Corey Coleman, Emmanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, Shon Coleman,

2017 #1 overall pick Myles Garrett, Jabrill Peppers, David Njoku

2018 #1 overall pick Baker Mayfield, Denzel Ward, Austin Corbett, Nick Chubb

2019 Greedy Williams ( finally had a pick in 2021), Sione Takitaki, Sheldrick Redwine,

2020 - Jedrick Wills, Grant Delpit, Jordan Elliott

 

Remember that the Browns, Bengals and Ravens  are not paying a franchise QB.

 

Do the Steelers need to clean out their scouting department?  Hell yes.  AR2 does not spend money and like his North Catholic boys ( which infest the scouting Dept.)  

The NFL is cyclical and the Steelers need to have a dip into the both third to get some real talent. 

A lot of those guys are still better than what we picked.  Also 2015/16 were under a different FO.  But lets run down some of them:

Shelton was better in NE when BB tapped into him being a run stuffing NT rather than a pass rusher (what Cleveland wanted), Duke Johnson was a damn good RB2 for years that we can never get.  Peppers has been good in NY as a SS in the role we want Edmunds.  Njoku is better than any TE not named Friermuth we've hace since 2017.  Ward has been a shut down corner.  Chubb is as good as Bell was.  

My point there was...our drafting is not as good as we make it out to be.  Mostly because the success of our good picks tend to mask how bad the other picks are.

[warfelg]

3 minutes ago, jebrick said:

And when the stars of the team are complaining about how lacks the practices are, that does not come back to KC.

Joe Schoebert is the only one that's said anything.

[CKSteeler]

Just now, warfelg said:

Joe Schoebert is the only one that's said anything.

Minkah Fitzpatrick just said the same thing after this debacle. 

[MOSteelers56]

I wonder if the lax practices(which tbh I hadn't heard about) are Tomlin overcorrecting after his hellish TC practices when he first came in? 

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think everyone is rightfully upset with both Tomlin and Colbert to varying degrees. I don't think anyone is arguing that either of these guys is doing a fantastic job. I think most fans would be willing to ride with both longer, but I think realistically most people would be ok with moving on. The team is absolutely stagnant. Bad drafts, bad trades, bad signings, bad luck, bad development is all plaguing the team. What level of blame does Tomlin and Colbert deserve is the hinge. 

I would like to see what Tomlin and KC can do with a fresh start. I'd like to see what they can do without being stuck to a way over the hill QB that is taking up a huge chunk of cap. Would I be broken up if they don't get this chance? No. 

I think people see hot takes on twitter(or on local radio) and they come on here, where some fairly rational fans live, and start attacking the twitter idiots. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm an outsider, so it's a strong possibility.

Here's my thing:

Colbert and Tomlin are too intertwined to pull them apart.  Cowher had this issue happen too and he won out, ousting Donahoe for Colbert in the first place.  But they worked together much much shorter than these two.

So if you fire Tomlin, I think you got to fire Colbert as well because he's just as much as the problem with failing to acquire talent.  Even healthy this team isn't all that talented.  I think it would be fair though to fire Colbert (or let him walk away) and keep Tomin to see if a new GM would want to work with him or move on.

As for your last point, I think the problem is the Twidiot style of thinking has made its way into people too much and struggle to handle actual nuanced conversations about stuff.

 

Like I'll lay this out:

I blame Colbert for the talent level of this team.  I blame him for hanging on to players longer than he should have.  I blame him for turning this team into a team that chases needs rather than looks for talent.

I blame Tomlin for the lack of passion.  I think he's passionate but he shows such a level of calm on the sidelines that players tend to relax.  I do wish he would show a little more.  I blame him for struggling to push for better RB rotations, the lack of settling in on WR rotations, the lack of OL shakeups due to performance, the random doghouse stuff.

I blame Canada and Butler for piss poor game management in play calling.  I blame them for the confusion that happens because they didn't communicate what needs to happen.  I blame them for lack of changing off what doesn't work.

I blame positional coaches for things like guys lining up at the wrong gaps.  I blame them for guys running wrong routes, wrong coverages, poor angles.  That's the stuff they are supposed to do.

I won't blame any coaches for something like a DT lining up in the right gap but constantly getting pushed into the wrong gap because that's a player issue not a coaching issue.  I won't blame coaches for a LB having such piss poor vision that they remain flat footed after the snap and then just waive an arm at a passing RB.  I don't blame coaches for a 17 year vet QB staring down a WR and throwing a terrible pick-6 while looking at everyone else like it's their fault.  I won't blame coaching for a LT with no punch or sand in his pants struggling to block anyone.  Yet those are things I see here and elsewhere, that those things are coaching problems, not player problems that nothing is going to fix.  I remember that we used to blame coaches for Jarvis Jones lack of development then Bud Dupree for lack of development, yet they go elsewhere and struggle to produce and you realize it's maybe they just aren't that good.

[warfelg]

10 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I wonder if the lax practices(which tbh I hadn't heard about) are Tomlin overcorrecting after his hellish TC practices when he first came in? 

Maybe.  I think as well the current CBA is part of the problem. The NFLPA pushed for less contact in practices and more walk throughs.

[43M]

23 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Like to me the cap thing is just an excuse.  By this offseason all 32 teams knew it was going to happen.  All 32 teams had an idea what the cap was going to be.  What's the excuse for us having issues with it while other teams were up against it and aren't struggling as much?  As for something like the OL, then maybe they should have taken an OL in the 1st over Najee.  Maybe they should have signed an OG to a backloaded contract rather than bring back Juju.  I think the writing on the wall at least was out there for LT and C before FA/Draft.  RT we knew was up in air because Banner was coming off an ACL.  So why was the plan for those three positions a 3rd round pick, a guy who was crap at RT being it at LT, and a cast off in Haeg to cover for the guy with the ACL injury?  Like that's what frustrates me.  They knew some of these things were going to be a problem anyways and did nothing about it.  

The cap issues were the result of poor long term planning, but you cant compare our situation to the other 31 teams straight up.    Its not an excuse for them because they created alot of thrle issues, but the point is, the pandemic caused us to lose several players we wouldn't have otherwise, and the sudden retirements and cuts (meaning, within months)   really piled on to an already bad situation.

[MOSteelers56]

I don't see a lot of people saying to fire Tomlin and keep Colbert, or vice versa. Some people don't like Tomlin and/or Colbert, so maybe they've been saying we need to get rid of one or the other for awhile. It seems like everyone is kind of in the same boat now. The "both are to blame" boat. 

[warfelg]

This is rather interesting.  Like as someone that coached there are times to crack the whip.  But there are times to use outside items to push tempo.  And not saying Chase is right and playing music is the answer.  

Then again we know that in the lockerroom there are things that Ben "controls" like what is played and who gets to be close to him and who isn't. Maybe it's time Tomin tells Ben "tough crap" on that.

[August4th]

funny how fast things can change in the NFL. A yr ago the Bengals looked like a mess that might ruin Joe, now they look like the team in the div with the brightest near future