The Ftont office or the coaches?

[Kiwibrown]

It is hard to know if Wentz would of been a franchise QB here. 

a terrible oline in 16.

average WR's 

decent run game some weeks

Always playing from behind. 

[big poppa pump]

2 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

I will give them that they likely set out to tank the season in order to guarantee getting a franchise QB, although it is weird, that if that was their plan all along, why waste a 2nd rounder on a dud like Kizer??? If their plan was to tank the season, they could have started anybody!!! So, was it by design???

Also, if they intended to get their QB in season 3, how did they know 2 years ago, how good a crop of QB's might be available for the 2018 draft??? There was no way to tell by the 2016 draft.

The above 2 points suggest to me, that they only had a plan to get assets and nothing more beyond that. Winning franchises draft game changers, who make all the difference between being a winner or a loser and outside of Garrett, I am not seeing much in the way of game changers coming out of their drafts. After all, they had the 1st pick in each round and were still out drafted by many teams.

Their story is simple, they likely have passed on 2 franchise QB's, the hardest position to fill on a football team and that speaks volumes to me about their ability to assess talent.

Then, there is their likely 1-31 record, a sign that they simply cannot draft talent, because no FO has ever come close to being this terrible for any reason.

All you offer is excuses for their failure, not spending cap money, which by the way, I agree with, youngest team in the league, like that has never happened before, so why the 1-31 record???, trade/cut vets, again, something I liked, start a rookie QB, why not start Kessler and not waste a 2nd rounder on a dud??? Flubbing a trade, give me a break, do they run the FO or not, so why make the trade in the 1st place??? Kenny Britt, ya, pay a guy millions who you know won't succeed, or why not just start a bum who is already on your pitiful roster???

Blaming Hue for the failures, man, they hired him, if he is a flop then their ability to assess HC's is a total flop???

Your claim that all this isn't just a crazy set of circumstances, but pretty much by design, rings hollow to me, it smalls a lot more like total incompetence IMO.

Again, just my opinion, but after running 2 drafts, I am not seeing a roster outside of Garrett, that can become a winner anytime in the near future, their 5 year plan is looking more like a 10 year plan to me and that is only if they can actually assess the QB's available in this year's draft and pick the best one, a very doubtful happening, IMO.

I'll say this LETSGOBROWNIES, your one heck of an optimist and see only the best in people, I hope your right and I am dead wrong, because I see only a bleak future for our beloved franchise. I am 74 and my experience as an Executive Director and HC of a sport in Canada, tells me this franchise smells rotten at its core and we are in for a long run at futility. I'll be amazed if these guys survive another season in their jobs. but our owner is even more incompetent than they are, so anything is possible!!!!

This all just makes too much sense.

 

 

[DaWg_LB.]

On 11/2/2017 at 10:15 AM, big poppa pump said:

The nerds broke the cardinal rule.  When you don't have a QB, you do whatever it takes to get one.  We didn't even have to trade a bunch of assets to move up.  There were QB's available BOTH years.

If the plan was to wait until year 3, how would they know they would be this terrible, and be in a position to get "their guy" in year 3???

 

That statement in and of itself is incaccurate....what if the cost is your 1rst round pick for the next 5 years? Then do you still "Do Anything to get one"?

Secondly grabbing a Franchise QB on team that is not ready can RUIN a young QB...Unless your saying draft him and let him sit on the bench for 2 years while you fix the Oline, Fix the D and get him some weapons?

[big poppa pump]

5 minutes ago, DaWg_LB. said:

That statement in and of itself is incaccurate....what if the cost is your 1rst round pick for the next 5 years? Then do you still "Do Anything to get one"?

Secondly grabbing a Franchise QB on team that is not ready can RUIN a young QB...Unless your saying draft him and let him sit on the bench for 2 years while you fix the Oline, Fix the D and get him some weapons?

I humbly disagree.  There is almost never an ideal situation for a QB that gets drafted.  How often is a team a QB away from being successful?  The team that is drafting that high is usually bad for more reasons than just not having a QB.  We have not made a move, when a move was there to be made, the last two drafts.  We had no idea that we would stink this bad in year 3 of a rebuild.  To wait that long, after having sucked, and had a high pick in the previous two drafts is unprecedented.  I don't think it is valid to say that Carson Wentz was walking into an ideal situation with Philly.  Maybe Houston was a QB away from being good when they drafted Watson???  Denver may be a QB away from being good???  Just because we have been awful, doesn't mean we would have ruined a young QB.  It may have happened???  But the opposite could have been true as well.  One of those QB's could just as easily have elevated the play, and started the process of rebuilding this franchise.  Instead....we will have to wait until year 3 of the rebuild....and hope.... that the clowns will grab a franchise QB

 

To your above point....a franchise QB IS worth 5 first rounders (especially the way we draft), although, that would never be the asking price.

[Iamcanadian]

9 hours ago, big poppa pump said:

I humbly disagree.  There is almost never an ideal situation for a QB that gets drafted.  How often is a team a QB away from being successful?  The team that is drafting that high is usually bad for more reasons than just not having a QB.  We have not made a move, when a move was there to be made, the last two drafts.  We had no idea that we would stink this bad in year 3 of a rebuild.  To wait that long, after having sucked, and had a high pick in the previous two drafts is unprecedented.  I don't think it is valid to say that Carson Wentz was walking into an ideal situation with Philly.  Maybe Houston was a QB away from being good when they drafted Watson???  Denver may be a QB away from being good???  Just because we have been awful, doesn't mean we would have ruined a young QB.  It may have happened???  But the opposite could have been true as well.  One of those QB's could just as easily have elevated the play, and started the process of rebuilding this franchise.  Instead....we will have to wait until year 3 of the rebuild....and hope.... that the clowns will grab a franchise QB

 

To your above point....a franchise QB IS worth 5 first rounders (especially the way we draft), although, that would never be the asking price.

I completely agree, true franchise QB's, the great ones, who were taken as top 5 picks, did not get ruined by being drafted by weak teams. These individuals are strong leaders of men who relish a challenge and are very tough mentally. They take bad teams and within 3 years, take them to the playoffs.

QB's who flop after being top 5 picks, were just misjudged by the teams drafting them. They were weak individuals, but judging character is a special skill that not every scout or GM possesses and weak GM's often make a mistakes, when drafting for any position.

Using 5 first rounders, which we all know has never happened in the history of the NFL, is just being ridiculous, but teams will pay 3 and it does not matter that RG111 flopped, because Shanahan is obviously a very talented judge of character and he insisted that they draft Cousins as well, a highly unusual move for a team that gave up 3 first rounders for a QB. Shanahan's father was a master drafter, a lot like BB except without the rings and it looks like his son has learned well from his dad, because, he saw something in Cousins that made him insist that they draft him.

[Iamcanadian]

14 hours ago, mistakey said:

26 year old from NDSU with injury history and about ~25 total starts screams cant miss to me

Well, it screamed can't miss to the Philly FO and I guess they were right on. Whether or not, our FO gets one more year to prove itself, right now, they would gladly take Wentz, knowing how he turned out over all the extra picks they got in return, because, clearly, their jobs are now on the line and they will be sweating out next season and praying the QB they draft turns out to be as good as Wentz. In fact, it scares the hell out of me, that they will be drafting in a panic mode, knowing their jobs could be gone and their careers in pro football be at an end, under those conditions, it is very hard to make clear calls on who to draft, because your confidence in yourself is a bit shattered and you start to second guess your reasoning. It is just human nature at work and it rarely turns out well, which is why I believe, we would be far better off if they are fired and a new confident fO takes their place, but who knows what Haslam will do?????. I certainly don't!!!

[ditchdigger]

2 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

Well, it screamed can't miss to the Philly FO and I guess they were right on. Whether or not, our FO gets one more year to prove itself, right now, they would gladly take Wentz, knowing how he turned out over all the extra picks they got in return, because, clearly, their jobs are now on the line and they will be sweating out next season and praying the QB they draft turns out to be as good as Wentz. In fact, it scares the hell out of me, that they will be drafting in a panic mode, knowing their jobs could be gone and their careers in pro football be at an end, under those conditions, it is very hard to make clear calls on who to draft, because your confidence in yourself is a bit shattered and you start to second guess your reasoning. It is just human nature at work and it rarely turns out well, which is why I believe, we would be far better off if they are fired and a new confident fO takes their place, but who knows what Haslam will do?????. I certainly don't!!!

Perhaps Philly has a coach that can evaluate QBs, because their lawyer-turned-salary-cap-guy-turned-GM certainly didn't make that call alone.

[big poppa pump]

2 hours ago, ditchdigger said:

Perhaps Philly has a coach that can evaluate QBs, because their lawyer-turned-salary-cap-guy-turned-GM certainly didn't make that call alone.

What WE do not know, but Jimmy Haslam does, is who the FO liked, and who Hue liked.  I would gather that Jimmy was sitting in the war room with all of them, and listening to everyone's take.  It should be very easy.  Was Sashi banging the drum for a trade down instead of Wentz?  Did Hue really want Garrett, but the FO Trubisky?  Was Hue hoping for Watson with our second first rounder, or was it Hooker?   Haslam was there for all of that.  He should be able to determine who has evaluated the talent more appropriately.

Jimmy could have also stepped in to both the FO, and Hue, to let them know that under no circumstances would either be fired.  These "desperate acts" which have been mostly Hue, could easily be eliminated, if only Jimmy said everyone is safe.

 

There is blame to go around, but it starts from the top down.  Jimmy, the FO, then Hue.

[mistakey]

2 hours ago, big poppa pump said:

What WE do not know, but Jimmy Haslam does, is who the FO liked, and who Hue liked.  I would gather that Jimmy was sitting in the war room with all of them, and listening to everyone's take.  It should be very easy.  Was Sashi banging the drum for a trade down instead of Wentz?  Did Hue really want Garrett, but the FO Trubisky?  Was Hue hoping for Watson with our second first rounder, or was it Hooker?   Haslam was there for all of that.  He should be able to determine who has evaluated the talent more appropriately.

Jimmy could have also stepped in to both the FO, and Hue, to let them know that under no circumstances would either be fired.  These "desperate acts" which have been mostly Hue, could easily be eliminated, if only Jimmy said everyone is safe.

 

There is blame to go around, but it starts from the top down.  Jimmy, the FO, then Hue.

well, the day after Hue did wentz pro day they went and signed RGIII
and then traded down later.

i think its also easier to see the measurable success of the FO
they took an old bad expensive team and made it into a young bad cheap team with a significant amount of draft capital and cap space, and our defense is solid enough now, including our run defense which has never happened in 20 years.
hue has gone 1-23 and all of the successes are on the defensive side

[dawgdish]

23 hours ago, mistakey said:

na they're pretty salient

which franchise qb was staring them in the face? Wentz? Watson? Mahomes? Trubisky?
Which one of those qbs were on the same cant miss caliber of Luck?

I never said anything about "can't miss", as there's really no such thing, and the guys with that label maybe come around once ever 5 years (if that). Goff and Wentz were both highly rated franchise type QBs, my point is you need to pull the trigger on one of those guys if they are staring you in the face if QB is a need. If you think you need to wait for a "can't miss" prospect along the caliber of Luck before pulling the trigger, you're either out of a job (or a Cleveland Browns GM).

[mistakey]

6 minutes ago, dawgdish said:

I never said anything about "can't miss", as there's really no such thing, and the guys with that label maybe come around once ever 5 years (if that). Goff and Wentz were both highly rated franchise type QBs, my point is you need to pull the trigger on one of those guys if they are staring you in the face if QB is a need. If you think you need to wait for a "can't miss" prospect along the caliber of Luck before pulling the trigger, you're either out of a job (or a Cleveland Browns GM).

yeah or the head coach didnt want to coach him..

[dawgdish]

2 hours ago, mistakey said:

yeah or the head coach didnt want to coach him..

Speculation. All we know for sure is that the buck stops at the GM with final say over the roster, and he's the one deserving of the blame with bad personnel decisions.

[big poppa pump]

3 hours ago, mistakey said:

well, the day after Hue did wentz pro day they went and signed RGIII
and then traded down later.

i think its also easier to see the measurable success of the FO
they took an old bad expensive team and made it into a young bad cheap team with a significant amount of draft capital and cap space, and our defense is solid enough now, including our run defense which has never happened in 20 years.
hue has gone 1-23 and all of the successes are on the defensive side

You can speculate all you want in terms of who Hue liked, and who the FO liked.  The bottom line is that there is one person who actually does know, and he wields all the power.  If he determines that Hue's evaluation of talent is trash, and that he isn't the coach he believed him to be, then go ahead and get rid of him.  The guy who has the final say on who we pick is Sashi...well really Jimmy...but on paper, it's Sashi.

 

I just have a difficult time with the Browns not making a strong commitment to a QB either via FA, Trade, but especially the draft.  I like Kizer, but I think we all know the history of QB's drafted outside of the first round.  And you would think that with the recent history of drafting QB's later in the first round (20's) that they would have learned their lesson, and drafted one in the top 5.  They ignored it not once, but twice.  If you feel that it was Hue's call (and maybe it was) then shame on him. 

 

I also think that your point about the defense being better is a bit of a stretch.  YPC against us has been very low, but we are still giving up 25 per game, with 4 games of over 30 pts.  Sashi and CO. have done fine with getting assets, and with keeping the cap space available.  When will we see the fruits of that?  Will they be able to capitalize in this draft and FA?  I haven't been overwhelmed with them thus far.

[mistakey]

and if they pass on a qb with the 1st or 2nd overall pick of the draft next year i'll agree with you
i cant imagine they will.

[Thomas5737]

22 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

I also think that your point about the defense being better is a bit of a stretch.  YPC against us has been very low, but we are still giving up 25 per game, with 4 games of over 30 pts. 

We are 9th in yards per game on defense and 26th in points. Obviously our offensive turnovers play a big part in that giving the opposing offense a short field to score. Our pass defense has been pretty bad overall, a lot of touchdowns given up, short field or otherwise that needs corrected. Also we allow a high percentage of passes to be completed that also needs worked on. Our pass defense is on pace to give up 32 TD and collect 10 picks, last year it was 36 and 10 so a slight improvement. We are on pace to give up about 500 fewer passing yards. Last year we gave up 2283 rushing yards, 18 TD at a 4.6 ypc. This year we are on pace to give up 1348 yards at 2.9 per carry with 10 TD. Pretty drastic improvement.

So while the pass defense has only been slightly better the run defense is a heck of a lot better making the overall defense a good bit better.