Post Game Thoughts- At Bears.

[Robb_K]

21 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of statements like this. 

Fans may have no faith in him, but there is no indication that players feel that way. 

Watch Zimmers' speech to the team after a win.  There is no energy at all.  The team has little energy towards any belief that they can go anywhere in The Playoffs.  They are not (as a team) splitting a gut to play for their coach and their teammates.  They seem to be just riding out the string.  There seems to be no joy in playing, like there is with confident, winning teams.  They must see that his ultra conservative coaching style is stifling this team's chances to win.  Sure there are individuals playing as hard as they can.  But they have no winning spirit, nor confidence as a team.  That comes from the top down - from the HC to the other coaches, to the important players (QB  first). There isn't much faith in Zimmer, based on the fact that he won't behave like a HEAD coach, but, instead, just concentrates on the defence - which, because of aging, injuries, and Covid protocol, is not what it was 3 years ago.  So, with Jefferson's and Osborn's development, and Cook still playing well, this team should be depending a lot more on its offence for its main chance to win.  But Zimmer's failure to choose a veteran OC, and for more than the first half of the season, not allow the offence to fully take advantage of the passing game, and The QB (Cousins) being afraid to get hit, and so checks down way too much when getting pressured, and Zimmer demanding use of too much of the cap space to fills holes on defence and leaving the OL very thin, and hoping that this year's rookie draft choices would be able to play adequately right away, has caused the offence to be inconsistent.  And Zimmer or Kubiak have made a lot of play calling errors, and Zimmer's clock management has been terrible.  I see the players not having the positive energy and confidence they should have, and it shows in their demeanor on and off the field.  Most of them look like they are just waiting for this season to end, and hope that management makes a strong move in the offseason to make the situation better, and the team start in a direction of clear evidence that they are on a better track.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Robb_K

[SemperFeist]

Everything you said was nothing more than how you feel that you’re trying to project on the players.

[SteelKing728]

15 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

Time to stop projecting because no one said this.

I don't think what he said psychological projection based on the definition. It's a logic fallacy for sure, and is probably closer to a strawman argument than anything else.

Nobody wants Nwangwu to replace Cook, at least for this season. I wouldn't mind seeing him get more playing time though to keep Cook fresh.

[JDBrocks]

2 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

I don't think what he said psychological projection based on the definition. It's a logic fallacy for sure, and is probably closer to a strawman argument than anything else.

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what this means.

[JDBrocks]

13 hours ago, babababa said:

Did you read what vikingsrule originally said? 

"Not sure if it’s time to move on from Cook, there’s so much more burst with Kene in the game..." 

So that's called supplanting -- not spelling. I didn't miss the mark.

Ok… but if you think he’s saying that Kene is a better player than Cook, and can’t infer a more nuanced argument I don’t know what to tell you. That’s projecting.

[SteelKing728]

1 hour ago, JDBrocks said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what this means.

Its a strawman, not projection.

[VikeManDan]

17 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

Maybe his high usage rate, 4th in the league as you said, is the problem. He’s dealt with injuries and there is a lack of explosive runs that we are accustomed too. There is nothing wrong with reducing his usage, even if it’s by 5% or 10% if it allows someone like Kene to be involved or what should really happen, letting the passing offense be the focal point.

Admittedly, I thought the same thing with Cook regarding the lack of explosive runs. It seems he is a shoe string tackle away, quite often, from breaking one.

I looked it up. This site defines an explosive run as 15+ yards.

https://www.ftnfantasy.com/nfl/tools/explosive-run-rate 

Cooks is tied for 1st (J. Taylor) with 17 runs of 15+ yards, and has played 3, or so, less games. Chubb is the next closest with 12 such runs, also in 3, or so, less games.

NFL site has records of 20+ and 40+ yard runs this season. 

https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/rushing/2021/REG/all/rushing20plusyardseach/DESC

Cook is tied for 3rd with seven 20+ yard runs, and his tied for 5th, with many others, with one 40+ yard run.

Of the current top 5 rushers in the league (moving Najee up to 5 instead of D. Henry) their percentage of team carries is as follows.

1. J. Taylor = 63.9% (270/422) without QB carries it is 72.9% (270/370). Next closest RB on team has 51 carries. (12% and 13.7%). Taylor 14 games played.
2. J. Mixon = 69.3% (262/378) without QB carries it is 77% (262/340). Next closest RB on team has 54 carries. (14.3% and 15.9%). Mixon 14 games played.
3. D. Cook = 57.4% (226/394) without QB carries it is 61.1% (226/370). Next closest RB on team has 116 carries. (29.4% and 31.4%). Cook 11 games played.
4. N. Chubb = 47.6% (190/399) without QB carries it is 53.1% (190/358). Next closest RB on team has 78 carries. (19.5% and 21.8%). Chubb 11 games played.
5. N. Harris = 76.7% (249/325) without QB carries it is 80.3% (245/305). Next closest RB on team has 18 carries. (5.6% and 5.9%). Harris 14 games played.

Re-ranking them based off of workload. I have to imagine that both Cook and Chubb's workload would fall between Taylor and Mixon (64% - 70%) had they been available.

1. N. Harris
2. J. Mixon
3. J. Taylor
4. D. Cook
5. N. Chubb

[babababa]

3 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

Ok… but if you think he’s saying that Kene is a better player than Cook, and can’t infer a more nuanced argument I don’t know what to tell you. That’s projecting.

He just opened up to the idea of moving on from Cook with an argument devoid of specificity in his original post and I called him out on it. The only reasoning was that Kene looks more exlosive to him and that he and Mattison were just as effective. What was I originally supposed to surmise based on that original statement? He went on to amend it and clarify.

Infer what? Moving on means letting Cook go. He then said Kene looks more explosive out there. He clearly wanted Cook out. He then later amended it to say that he wanted to just play Kene more to spell Cook.

He then changed his reasoning based on financials.

The arguments are all over the place. You can't move the goalposts and blame someone for arguing with the original point later. 

 

[babababa]

1 hour ago, SteelKing728 said:

Its a strawman, not projection.

If you want to make an argument you need to clearly explain your reasoning. Saying "Not sure if it's time to move on from [x]" means letting something go -- either now or later. The follow-up reasoning was unclear and at best short-sighted. The argument he gave was clear. I didn't misrepresent him. It was his reasoning that was murky.

[gopherwrestler]

15 hours ago, Robb_K said:

Watch Zimmers' speech to the team after a win.  There is no energy at all.  The team has little energy towards any belief that they can go anywhere in The Playoffs.  

To be fair. They treat a lot of games, away game, like a Business. This one they should have handled business and got out of there. They got out but not how they imagined. I’m sure they weren’t exactly thrilled with how they snuck out of there but a win is a win. Probably shouldn’t be a ton of hooting and hollering.

 

same side of this there was a decent amount of people that didn’t like the fire up at each other Zimmer and Kirk. We do see fire when we win these tight games, but hard to see a ton of fire in a win that wasn’t that great.

[swede700]

15 hours ago, Robb_K said:

Watch Zimmers' speech to the team after a win.  There is no energy at all.  The team has little energy towards any belief that they can go anywhere in The Playoffs.  They are not (as a team) splitting a gut to play for their coach and their teammates.  They seem to be just riding out the string.  There seems to be no joy in playing, like there is with confident, winning teams.  They must see that his ultra conservative coaching style is stifling this team's chances to win.  Sure there are individuals playing as hard as they can.  But they have no winning spirit, nor confidence as a team.  That comes from the top down - from the HC to the other coaches, to the important players (QB  first). There isn't much faith in Zimmer, based on the fact that he won't behave like a HEAD coach, but, instead, just concentrates on the defence - which, because of aging, injuries, and Covid protocol, is not what it was 3 years ago.  So, with Jefferson's and Osborn's development, and Cook still playing well, this team should be depending a lot more on its offence for its main chance to win.  But Zimmer's failure to choose a veteran OC, and for more than the first half of the season, not allow the offence to fully take advantage of the passing game, and The QB (Cousins) being afraid to get hit, and so checks down way too much when getting pressured, and Zimmer demanding use of too much of the cap space to fills holes on defence and leaving the OL very thin, and hoping that this year's rookie draft choices would be able to play adequately right away, has caused the offence to be inconsistent.  And Zimmer or Kubiak have made a lot of play calling errors, and Zimmer's clock management has been terrible.  I see the players not having the positive energy and confidence they should have, and it shows in their demeanor on and off the field.  MJost of them look like they are just waiting for this season to end, and hope that management makes a strong move in the offseason to make the situation better, and the teamstart in a direction of clear evidence that they are on a better track.

I'm with Semper on this one, I'm not seeing what you're seeing.  To me, it looks like they play hard, they just don't play well.  I don't think they played as hard as the Bears did on Monday, but that wasn't what I've typically seen from them.  I do agree that the coaching staff hasn't put them in a great position to have success, but i think they are still doing the best that they can, given the circumstances.  I don't see quit in them, which is what I think you believe you're seeing.  But, one thing I do see is that we don't have many guys who are "emotional" players, so it may appear that they aren't having fun.  There are a lot workmanlike players on the team.  I think they do need more infusion of guys with "emotion", guys like Everson.  I think they have a few, like Boyd, but they need more.  

[babababa]

3 hours ago, swede700 said:

I'm with Semper on this one, I'm not seeing what you're seeing.  To me, it looks like they play hard, they just don't play well.  I don't think they played as hard as the Bears did on Monday, but that wasn't what I've typically seen from them.  I do agree that the coaching staff hasn't put them in a great position to have success, but i think they are still doing the best that they can, given the circumstances.  I don't see quit in them, which is what I think you believe you're seeing.  But, one thing I do see is that we don't have many guys who are "emotional" players, so it may appear that they aren't having fun.  There are a lot workmanlike players on the team.  I think they do need more infusion of guys with "emotion", guys like Everson.  I think they have a few, like Boyd, but they need more.  

Yeah the Bears defense was really fired up. I was surprised to see how emotional they were all game long despite their record. On a couple instances Cook looked incredulous after he was rather forcefully tackled. If the Bears could be more disciplined and get it together on the offense they'd be dangerous. 

[Robb_K]

3 hours ago, gopherwrestler said:

To be fair. They treat a lot of games, away game, like a Business. This one they should have handled business and got out of there. They got out but not how they imagined. I’m sure they weren’t exactly thrilled with how they snuck out of there but a win is a win. Probably shouldn’t be a ton of hooting and hollering.

 

same side of this there was a decent amount of people that didn’t like the fire up at each other Zimmer and Kirk. We do see fire when we win these tight games, but hard to see a ton of fire in a win that wasn’t that great.

The Vikings' players have been very down looking after just about every win but The Packers' game.  But they played poorly quite a bit of all those games, except the Seattle game.  Still, I think that most of the players think this team would be a lot better off if Zimmer would just retire, because The game has passed him by.  I DO, however, think it is a good sign that Peterson has stated that he would like to return to The Vikings for the next season or two.   I think the players all KNOW that The Wilfs will likely ask Zimmer to retire, or fire him after the season ends, unless the team somehow gets to The Superbowl.