How are those Rookies Doing? Mid-Season Edition

[Soko]

1 minute ago, Jlowe22 said:

I wouldn't take Kamara over Le'Veon Bell.  I love Bell as an RB.

He does fit our offense like a glove though.  The utility we're getting out of our rookies is quite amazing to say the least.  I won't start with all this "best in the league" business, but based on what we've seen thus far, there's no real reason to not be high on them.

Agreed with you 100%. 

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, sammymvpknight said:

Sean Payton’s the one comparing Kamara to Faulk. You don’t trade someone who you believe is a young Faulk...especially he has continued to look exceptional. 

Agreed. I'm hoping the Rams don't trade their young Brady, young Dickerson, and young Largent.

[HTTRDynasty]

3 hours ago, The LBC said:

1. Bull.  It was textbook trolling.  You were fishing for a reaction or else you wouldn't have felt the need to put my name, much less tag me, in the post.

2.  See above.

3.  Neither of us is right or wrong yet.  Hate to break it to you, but 5 games is an absolutely terrible sample-size to anoint someone "an impact player."  Particularly when those 5 games have amounted to a total of 10 tackles and 1 sack.  You picked one efficiency stat from PFF (who has had their methodologies called out in the past; you know, like how they're giving him credit for 2 more sacks than he actually has, which is safe to say that it likely skewed their metric) that happened to put him on the level with other top interior rushers and that's supposed to establish what exactly?

Geno Atkins has 6 sacks and almost 3x as many tackles; nearly the same for Heyward, except he has 5 sacks, not 6.  David Irving has 6 sacks and more tackles while playing 1 less game.  Aaron Donald has 4 sacks and nearly double the amount of tackles while playing only 2 more games (and a track record of averaging 9+ sacks per season).  Are we seeing a pattern here?  Impact players FINISH when it comes to pass-rushing.  You'd have a better case arguing Ioannidis, but you don't want to do that because you're still trying to prove that somehow Jonathan Allen is the finisher that Ioannidis and these others are that he hasn't shown to be (not in college and not yet in the pro's either). 

Now he may yet prove to become a finisher.  He might not.  But he certainly hasn't substantiated "proving me wrong" off of 5 games with 3 unassisted tackles, 7 assisted tackles, 1 sack, and no turnovers to his credit.

 

And here we see the classic case of a stat sheet watcher.  You would see the pressure he generates on a snap-by-snap basis (especially when he's not being double-teamed) if you actually watched the games.  

And sure, hide behind limited sample size as the reason for his performance this year if that makes you feel better, but anyone who watched the games can tell you that our defense is night and day without him in the lineup... and it's obvious enough that you don't need to see a full season's worth to know it.  Also, Ioannidis has been nowhere near as impactful without Allen out there taking up double teams, which you would know if you actually watched the games instead of just the stat sheet.

[Dr LBC]

3 minutes ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

 

And here we see the classic case of a stat sheet watcher.  You would see the pressure he generates on a snap-by-snap basis (especially when he's not being double-teamed) if you actually watched the games.  

And sure, hide behind limited sample size as the reason for his performance this year if that makes you feel better, but anyone who watched the games can tell you that our defense is night and day without him in the lineup... and it's obvious enough that you don't need to see a full season's worth to know it.  Also, Ioannidis has been nowhere near as impactful without Allen out there taking up double teams, which you would know if you actually watched the games instead of just the stat sheet.

You champion PFF and then decry stats?  What exactly do you think they're doing at PFF?

I've seen plenty of Redskins games this season.  Allen has been good... nowhere near the level of several of the players that were on the graphic or several players that were left off (Fletcher Cox definitely comes to mind).  Assuming PFF is even listing his pressures correctly (because we've already established that they misrepresented his sacks), though it does seem like an fairly accurate number based off of the Skins games I've seen - he's averaging a little over 3 pressures per game.  Heyward is averaging 4.5/gm (and yet is somehow, while having more sacks and a FF to his credit, scored below Allen by PFF's metric).  Congratulations, he's double-teamed... like just about every interior lineman is.  Great interior DL (the ones who "beast") produce in spite of being double-teamed.  JJ Watt, when he was healthy, was practically triple-teamed on half his snaps and still produced.  Aaron Donald is double-teamed on more than 80% of his snaps (not to mention outright held a fair amount of time) and is still leading the league with 44 pressures in 1-2 less games than his peers.

Stop assuming anything about me.  It doesn't do anything other than make you look so desperate to champion the player on your team that you'll resort to hyperbole or just plain making stuff up.

As to the bolded, just STOP.  Yes.  Yes, you absolutely need a good-sized sample size before "knowing" anything.  That's how statistics and probability (you know... MATH) work.  It's not hiding behind anything.  It's extremely relevant even if you're ignorant enough to believe otherwise.  If all it took was 5 games of "passing the eye test" to earn a player cred, Trent Richardson would have been a made man after his first 5 where he averaged higher than his career average in YPC and looked like a beast in all but the game against Philly on opening day.  Phil Taylor (the same Phil Taylor now on the Skins) looked like an absolute stud through his first 5 games... we've clearly seen since that he's decent but not special.

You know the nice thing about sample-size (or even math, in general) and relevance?  It exists, whether you believe it does or not.

[Raves]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

A) He didn’t say anywhere that he believes Kamara will be Faulk, close to Faulk, or a Faulk level running back. 

B) Obviously Payton will say that, that’s a player on his team. I bet he thinks Marshon Lattimore has some Deion Sanders in him too.

C) Who would you rather have right now: Kamara or Bell? Johnson? Elliot? 

I wouldn't take those RBs over Kamara, because Kamara fills a role that none of those RBs could.  Kamara isn't being used as a primary, solo RB, but rather in a tandem with Ingram.  The question would be best served as would we prefer Kamara/Ingram over Bell, Johnson, or Elliot.  I would prefer Kamara/Ingram over those RBs only because how well our duo fits within our offense compared to how those would individually and would still need a complementary piece.  Now if you asked if we would want any of those RBs over Ingram to pair with Kamara, the answer would be a resounding yes.

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, Raves said:

I wouldn't take those RBs over Kamara, because Kamara fills a role that none of those RBs could.  Kamara isn't being used as a primary, solo RB, but rather in a tandem with Ingram.  The question would be best served as would we prefer Kamara/Ingram over Bell, Johnson, or Elliot.  I would prefer Kamara/Ingram over those RBs only because how well our duo fits within our offense compared to how those would individually and would still need a complementary piece.  Now if you asked if we would want any of those RBs over Ingram to pair with Kamara, the answer would be a resounding yes.

Every single one of those HBs could fill his role. Claiming that they'd also fill Ingram's role makes them less valuable is just a nonsensical argument.

[sammymvpknight]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

A) He didn’t say anywhere that he believes Kamara will be Faulk, close to Faulk, or a Faulk level running back. 

B) Obviously Payton will say that, that’s a player on his team. I bet he thinks Marshon Lattimore has some Deion Sanders in him too.

C) Who would you rather have right now: Kamara or Bell? Johnson? Elliot? 

I suspect that you would have said that anyone hyping Bell and Johnson as one of the leagues best midway through their rookie seasons would be hyperbole. Kamara isn’t as far behind those guys as you think. And Payton likes him...I stand by my statement. 

[Raves]

12 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Every single one of those HBs could fill his role. Claiming that they'd also fill Ingram's role makes them less valuable is just a nonsensical argument.

That's actually not the argument,  the argument is that none of them are the receiving threat that Kamara is, who has lined up and actually ran routes just as good as a WR.  The argument is that none of those RBs would be able to do what Kamara does, especially since it's a true tandem with Kamara/Ingram so the RB would have to be able to not only be a traditional RB, Ingram, but also an elite pass catcher, Kamara, to be able to fill the role.  Any of those RBs would fill the role that Ingram plays on the team magnificently and would be an obvious upgrade, but none of them can fill the role of Kamara, even Zeke who I do love as a receiver out of the backfield, but you can't line him up at WR and expect him to be just as effective.

 

I think better comparisons for who you would take rather than Kamara are Hunt, McCaffery, Cohen, etc who are also able to be split out wide more efficiently than Bell, Johnson, or Elliot.  With those RBs we would still need a RB that fills the role of Kamara due to the offense Payton likes to run.  In the past we've used Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles, and now Kamara.  The past few years without a threat like that has actually probably hindered the playcalls that Payton wants to use.  Kamara is basically playing how we all expected Reggie Bush to play coming out of college.

 

So it's really not a slight against those RBs, just that Kamara fills a very specific role that Bell, Johnson, and Elliot aren't suited for.  Now if we are talking about starting a team from scratch and needing a RB, I would take those 3 over Kamara any day of the week, but specifically in the Saints offense, Kamara is more valuable based on what he can do.

Stats this season:

Kamara/Ingram-175 carries, 852 yards, 4.86 ypc, 7 TD, 69 catches, 533 yards, 2 TD, total 1385 yards, 9 TD

Bell-194 carries, 760 yards, 3.9 ypc, 5 TD, 35 catches, 219 yards, total 979 yards 5 TD

Elliot-191 carries, 783 yards, 7.1 ypc, 7 TD, 19 catches, 210 yards, 2 TD, total 993 yards, 9 TD

 

Sure you could add in the back-ups but even with Alfred Morris' 14 carries and 1 reception, that only gets that duo to 1118 yards and still 9 TDs for Zeke/Morris, while adding James Connor's 18 carries for 89 yards and 0 catches only puts you at 1068 yards and still just 5 TD.

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, Raves said:

That's actually not the argument,  the argument is that none of them are the receiving threat that Kamara is, who has lined up and actually ran routes just as good as a WR.  The argument is that none of those RBs would be able to do what Kamara does, especially since it's a true tandem with Kamara/Ingram so the RB would have to be able to not only be a traditional RB, Ingram, but also an elite pass catcher, Kamara, to be able to fill the role.  Any of those RBs would fill the role that Ingram plays on the team magnificently and would be an obvious upgrade, but none of them can fill the role of Kamara, even Zeke who I do love as a receiver out of the backfield, but you can't line him up at WR and expect him to be just as effective.

Le'Veon Bell and David Johnson aren't the receiving threats that Kamara is? JFC.

I just can't anymore with these Saints fans. 

[Raves]

3 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Le'Veon Bell and David Johnson aren't the receiving threats that Kamara is? JFC.

I just can't anymore with these Saints fans. 

Are either able to line-up as a receiver, run an actual route tree, and still leave DBs in the dust?  Are you even trying anymore?  Also most of their receiving yards come off screens/draws which isn't all that Kamara does and already puts the defense at a disadvantage to react.

[jrry32]

Just now, Raves said:

Are either able to line-up as a receiver, run an actual route tree, and still leave DBs in the dust?  Are you even trying anymore?

Yes. We've literally seen both do that. Have you ever watched either guy play? Example:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000539979/Steelers-Michael-Vick-to-Le-Veon-Bell-20-yard-catch

[Raves]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

Yes. We've literally seen both do that. Have you ever watched either guy play? Example:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000539979/Steelers-Michael-Vick-to-Le-Veon-Bell-20-yard-catch

So a single play that was horribly covered with a sloppy "route" if you can even call it that, and the QB throwing it so he has to stop to catch it.  With Kamara you lead him and he's gonig to run under and catch it like a WR and take that for a TD.  Even Mike Vick could've thrown him that pass correctly.

[jrry32]

Just now, Raves said:

So a single play that was horribly covered with a sloppy "route" if you can even call it that, and the QB throwing it so he has to stop to catch it.  With Kamara you lead him and he's gonig to run under and catch it like a WR and take that for a TD.  Even Mike Vick could've thrown him that pass correctly.

Well, I tried. There's no reasoning with Saints homers.

[Raves]

Just now, jrry32 said:

Well, I tried. There's no reasoning with Saints homers.

Or Saints Haters rather, which you've made clear in another thread of being.

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, Raves said:

Or Saints Haters, which you've made clear in another thread of being.

Okay, bud, I'll just make sure to quote this comment to keep you from editing it out at a later time:

21 minutes ago, Raves said:

Are either (Le'Veon Bell or David Johnson) able to line-up as a receiver, run an actual route tree, and still leave DBs in the dust?  Are you even trying anymore?  Also most of their receiving yards come off screens/draws which isn't all that Kamara does and already puts the defense at a disadvantage to react.

Any knowledgeable football fan will read this and laugh hard. You're either completely ignorant of what those two guys can do, or you're pretending you are to promote Kamara. I hope it's the latter.

@BlaqOptic @FourThreeMafia @LuckyNumber11 @11sanchez11 @DirtyDez @CKSteeler

Please, help.