What moves will Andrew Berry make at the Quarterback Position this Offseason?

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

No question. They need to have a 2023 and beyond plan though for everyone's sake...or a 2022 and beyond one if it means putting together an insane package for an ELITE QB talent via trade. I don't want lateral moves like Jimmy G, who has injury concerns and physical/turnover limitations. I'd be open to Cousins, but I wouldn't be pumped, as he's an upgrade but still has flaws.

Who are the elite guys though? Like ELITE.  Russ and Rodgers?
 

Russ is good and would improve this team without question.  I’m game.

Rodgers?  Definitely elite, but we’ll be having this same conversation in a couple years.  I’d be hesitant to start throwing a mess of picks at a guy who’s contemplating retirement before we even trade for him. In a vacuum it’s an easy decision, but…

All of this assumes those guys want to actually play here too.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I'll be the first to admit I don't like this QB class, but every time I think about how this draft class is labeled as bad - I remember how people declared Watson was a 3rd round quality QB with poor velocity, how Pat Mahomes was a gunslinger who put up inflated numbers in a gimmicky offense and a 2nd round guy at best... and how Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold were Day 1 starters and immediate contributors the following draft.

I'm not saying there's a Mahomes or Watson in this draft, nor am I saying that it's a green room full of Rosen's. It's a crapshoot, but you have to trust the evaluation process in some capacity.

I completely agree with this, but with Mahomes you could at least see top 1% physical traits. Watson had a pedigree/level of production that was undeniable.  Sure they were nit picked, but you could at least envision how’d they’d succeed because of their tools and production.

I don’t see that guy in this class at all except maybe Willis and he’s been beaten out by Nix and Stidham and didn’t exactly dominate at Liberty.  He’s a 100% flier on physical traits.

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I don't personally think finding a guy who is better is easy, but I'm more interested in finding a guy who is more consistent. The variances between good Baker and bad Baker are all over the place, it's pretty much the difference between being competitive and not being competitive as a franchise.

Finding a caretaker - a guy who isn't going to win or lose games, someone who will play to the confines of what the offense can do and what the defense is giving them - is more important than finding the guy who can carry the team on their shoulders for drives at a time, IMO. I honestly thought that's what Baker was turning into, a caretaker with sprinkles of greatness. I haven't seen that this season. It could be due to injury, sure - but if it is, there's the possibility that this is simply how he is now (think Cam after TJ Watt planted him).

That's my opinion, at least - I am admittedly not as engaged as you guys, so corrections to my assessment are welcomed.

Honestly Baker had been protecting the ball pretty well for the first 2/3 of the season.  The last bit the wheels have come off as it looks like he’s pressing and/or lost.  I don’t think it’s wild to think he could go back to that, but it’s going to require some guys around him actually making plays.  Regardless of what anyone thinks of Baker, we have arguably the least talented group of receivers in the league.  That needs corrected regardless as to who the QB is.

[big poppa pump]

10 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I’ll be a condescending arse plenty, but not when having a real discussion about real ish (just avoid the covid thread, that may not be true there lol). We all as dudes need to be better allies with this stuff.

[ET80]

30 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I don’t see that guy in this class at all except maybe Willis and he’s been beaten out by Nix and Stidham and didn’t exactly dominate at Liberty.  He’s a 100% flier on physical traits.

Maybe I'm different, but I see it in Corral (high level of production in a tough conference and he has moments that "pop" on film - maybe not 1% bit definitely 3-4% physical skillset) and Ridder (the work he did in Cincinnati is impressive - getting them to a bigger stage than the Rest of Five has been afforded at this point - it's not Watson beating 'Bama, in the NC but he's not throwing to Mike Williams and Hunter Renfrow either). 

I'm also bullish on Kenny Pickett IN THE RIGHT SITUATION, which Cleveland is moreso than say... Houston, Detroit, etc.

30 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Honestly Baker had been protecting the ball pretty well for the first 2/3 of the season.  

This is where my inexperience comes into it - what I have seen is he's throwing it to where NOBODY could get it, which is why I assumed it was the injury cropping up (a lot of that was with a healthy Odell Beckham Jr, and I get where that was a bad pairing from the start). Like you said, the recent changes with turnovers seems like he's pressing a lot - and is trying things he simply shouldn't try.

It personally doesn't fit the narrative I have for QBs who are caretakers, but I'm missing a ton of context admittedly.

30 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Baker, we have arguably the least talented group of receivers in the league.  

...could I interest you in a slightly used Brandin Cooks? You're not going to find a more reliable guy than Cooks, who is the Toyota Camry of WRs. 28 years old, well traveled with a SB pedigree, put up 1,000 in multiple seasons (in fact, he's failed to hit 1,000 only twice in his career). No Odell drama, his daddy ain't gonna post videos to the 'Gram, no playing games while wearing a Richard Mille...

Go ahead and kick a 2nd or 3rd over this way and we can get it done, methinks. Houston is a dumpster fire... sale.

[candyman93]

Give us Cooks pls

 

I will spike the Ghoul running your team with enough laxatives to crap his insides 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Maybe I'm different, but I see it in Corral (high level of production in a tough conference and he has moments that "pop" on film) and Ridder (the work he did in Cincinnati is impressive - getting them to a bigger stage than the Rest of Five has been afforded at this point - it's not Watson beating 'Bama, in the NC but he's not throwing to Mike Williams and Hunter Renfrow either). 
 

eh I see a soon to be 23 yo 5th year QB with 2 years of starting experience and one middling season of production paired with average at best physical traits.

2 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I'm also bullish on Kenny Pickett IN THE RIGHT SITUATION, which Cleveland is moreso than say... Houston, Detroit, etc.

Another 24 year old rookie who has one decent season of production despite 3-4 years of starting experience.  Middling physical traits.  
 

I think he and Corral could be decent, anyone has a chance, but I view guys like this as day 3 picks you hope to develop, not someone you’d drop a top 50 pick on like some feel will happen. If they work out cool, but if not you’re not overly invested. Id be surprised if either turns into a good backup tbh.

2 minutes ago, ET80 said:

This is where my inexperience comes into it - what I have seen is he's throwing it to where NOBODY could get it, which is why I assumed it was the injury cropping up (a lot of that was with a healthy Odell Beckham Jr, and I get where that was a bad pairing from the start). Like you said, the recent changes with turnovers seems like he's pressing a lot - and is trying things he simply shouldn't try.

It personally doesn't fit the narrative I have for QBs who are caretakers, but I'm missing a ton of context admittedly.

Oh he’s definitely sailed some throws, but he’s not typically an inaccurate passer.  Plenty of other weaknesses, but accuracy isn’t really one of them.

As far as the receivers, it almost doesn’t matter where you throw it, they’re gonna goof it.  Hell Hooper had like 3 that hit his hands and were dropped on Monday. I get that happens to every QB, but there’s been maybe 3-4 plays all year where you saw a WR really make a play and do something with the ball.  Other than that they do more or less the minimum if the do manage to catch it.

2 minutes ago, ET80 said:

...could I interest you in a slightly used Brandin Cooks? You're not going to find a more reliable guy than Cooks, who is the Toyota Camry of WRs. 26 years old, well traveled with a SB pedigree, put up 1,000 in multiple seasons (in fact, he's failed to hit 1,000 only twice in his career).

Go ahead and kick a 2nd over this way and we can get it done, methinks. Houston is a dumpster fire... sale.

Oh hell yes lol.

[MWil23]

47 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Who are the elite guys though? Like ELITE.  Russ and Rodgers?
 

Russ is good and would improve this team without question.  I’m game.

Rodgers?  Definitely elite, but we’ll be having this same conversation in a couple years.  I’d be hesitant to start throwing a mess of picks at a guy who’s contemplating retirement before we even trade for him. In a vacuum it’s an easy decision, but…

Those are the only two that I'd think about acquiring that are in the "elite" tier, yes.

47 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

All of this assumes those guys want to actually play here too.

Russ I'm actually hesitant on and he's shown some regression, especially with a good WR corps. I know that their OL and running game is pretty poor, but still. As long as people understand that he's still going to be solid/great but not be that guy from 4-5 years ago, I'm game. He also won't come here to Cleveland and his wife wants a big city from everything I've heard and read.

So, I'd be willing to go all in on those two, and I'd be willing to acquire Cousins if the price is right.  Those are basically the only three I'd consider. Matt Ryan is old, he's a dome QB, and he's regressing, so no thank you. 

[dawgdish]

3 hours ago, MWil23 said:

If I didn’t know better, and tin foil hat time, I’d say that Stefanski and company wanted to show the world that Baker wasn’t the guy Monday night, which is a pretty lousy way to go about it, but let’s remember that he’s not part of this front office or coaching staff regime’s plan/pick, so it may have been to show Jimmy proof “hey we tried” to sell him on moving on.

The vague speak from Stefanski after the game combined with Baker saying he left everything out there for the team (he absolutely did) and he’d talk with his agent sounded like a guy desperate to be a starting quarterback anywhere, let alone in Cleveland. The whole language was really interesting to me, regardless of emotions being heightened.

Pure tinfoil hat theory at it's finest, IMO.

Despite many game plans and play calls this season that suggest the contrary, I still think Stefanski is an intelligent guy. He knows that he's at the top of the heap and 1 of 32 in that seat, and that the opportunities are not guaranteed, especially if you aren't demonstrating success. He also knows his boss has one of the quickest, itchiest trigger fingers in this fading republic we call the US of A, and that his rear end is where it is only due to the fickle finger of fate and I doubt he'd tempt that fate on a questionable long term strategy for a boss who never met a long term strategy he wasn't willing to nuke tomorrow. Just win baby.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 hours ago, MWil23 said:

If I didn’t know better, and tin foil hat time, I’d say that Stefanski and company wanted to show the world that Baker wasn’t the guy Monday night, which is a pretty lousy way to go about it, but let’s remember that he’s not part of this front office or coaching staff regime’s plan/pick, so it may have been to show Jimmy proof “hey we tried” to sell him on moving on.

Honestly I’d expect anyone who believes this (not saying it’s you) to be leading the train to have KS fired.

If a coach’s plan is to make his players look like ish intentionally instead of just benching them, that’s a fireable offense imo.

While I don’t believe KS did much at all to help Baker, I don’t believe it was malicious or intentional.

 

[MWil23]

16 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Honestly I’d expect anyone who believes this (not saying it’s you) to be leading the train to have KS fired.

If a coach’s plan is to make his players look like ish intentionally instead of just benching them, that’s a fireable offense imo.

While I don’t believe KS did much at all to help Baker, I don’t believe it was malicious or intentional.

 

Let me clarify:

I'm not saying that he put him in an intentional spot to suck or that he intentionally tanked the gameplan, but I think that he clearly did a more "pro style" gameplan with less playaction, more 1 and 3 step drops, etc. to see if he could do it and possibly knowing that it wasn't likely for him to be able to.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

18 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Let me clarify:

I'm not saying that he put him in an intentional spot to suck or that he intentionally tanked the gameplan, but I think that he clearly did a more "pro style" gameplan with less playaction, more 1 and 3 step drops, etc. to see if he could do it and possibly knowing that it wasn't likely for him to be able to.

Even then, is week 17 with an injured QB the time to be trying new things?  Do that next summer or fall, not now.

He should have been moving the pocket, keeping a back in the backfield to at least make the defense respect the potential for a run, allowing that back to chip/help with Watt, etc.

IDK, I’d just like to hear the rationale for a lot of the things we saw Monday.  It didn’t make a lot of sense to me.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

And I would get the frustration from KS’s perspective if he felt irritated by Baker not being able to perform out of certain formations or do certain things, but highlighting those deficiencies for everyone is not the way to handle it.

If you’re that frustrated, bench him and play Keenum.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

And I would get the frustration from KS’s perspective if he felt irritated by Baker not being able to perform out of certain formations or do certain things, but highlighting those deficiencies for everyone is not the way to handle it.

If you’re that frustrated, bench him and play Keenum.

This I agree with for certain, and tbh if this is the case (and I think that it is given how bad Baker's mechanics are and how he can't read basic formations/understand basic 1/2 high safety concepts), they need to move on for everyone's benefit.

Maximize the talent on this roster.

Let Baker be that "bridge guy" with warts somewhere else (New Orleans could do worse), and I think he's a journeyman starter but not a franchise guy.

Move on and get out of limbo...make a decision.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

This I agree with for certain, and tbh if this is the case (and I think that it is given how bad Baker's mechanics are and how he can't read basic formations/understand basic 1/2 high safety concepts), they need to move on for everyone's benefit.

Maximize the talent on this roster.

Let Baker be that "bridge guy" with warts somewhere else (New Orleans could do worse), and I think he's a journeyman starter but not a franchise guy.

Move on and get out of limbo...make a decision.

We’re back to that same question of move on to who?  If they love one of these guys in the draft (yikes), do it.

If not, don’t WE then need a journeyman/bridge guy? Or is that Keenum or Mullens?
 

And if Keenum or Mullens is an upgrade, that looks awful for KS imo.  Not only did you allow Baker to play hurt, you did so thinking his backups were more capable.

[MWil23]

Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

We’re back to that same question of move on to who?  If they love one of these guys in the draft (yikes), do it.

If they love one, you have to do it while I hold my breath and hope for the best with not so tempered optimism.

Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

If not, don’t WE then need a journeyman/bridge guy? Or is that Keenum or Mullens?

Or you make a play for Cousins who has experience in this system and is a definitive upgrade over Baker. 

Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

And if Keenum or Mullens is an upgrade, that looks awful for KS imo.  Not only did you allow Baker to play hurt, you did so thinking his backups were more capable.

Yes and No. He was absolutely brought in with "strings attached" that he HAD TO salvage Baker. How much were his hands tied behind the scenes? That's a question we probably will never know the answer to.