2022 College Prospect Thread

[7DnBrnc53]

3 hours ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

I disagree with you here. Russ has been THE limiting factor of this offense. I have said this elsewhere, but Sean is scheming guys wide open and Russ still hits them off target. If he could simply hit a WR in stride the broncos would score 10-14 more points a game. But every. Single. Throw is off. Behind the receiver. In the dirt. Leading them directly into the defender. Jerry jeudy is legit one of the better route runners in the league, but he doesn’t have that dawg in him to fight for balls. You have to lead him away from the defender and Russ can’t do that at this point. So our passing game is reliant on throwing 50/50 balls to Sutton.

additionally, likely due to his height as this has been an issue his entire career, he cant hit between the hash marks less than 20 yards unless it’s a broken play where he throws once he’s scrambled beyond the OL.

That brings us to the fact that he can’t step up into the pocket (not sure if it’s a height thing) but he starts scrambling before there is pressure. It’s hard on the lineman when they don’t know where the QB is. Can’t block to protect a pocket cuz Russ will just escape the pocket and run into the defender. it’s why the IOL has suddenly looked so good on paper. Sean isn’t trying to make Russ stay in the pocket (and this get eaten by the internal pass rush), unfortunately as we’ve seen that means that the offense can never get into a rhythm. This team lives and does by the big play. Due to repeated short fields they’ve been able to make just enough big plays to score just enough points to win. But it’s not sustainable long term. 
 

TLDR: Russ is still getting worse but Sean is scheming him into a very limited scheme that allows hims some semblance of success. QB is still very much a need but we shouldn’t take one high just to take one. 

This is why I have been struggling with this winning streak at times. This is a team that won't go too far. I would rather have Drake Maye than this winning streak.

[Broncofan]

8 hours ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

This is why I have been struggling with this winning streak at times. This is a team that won't go too far. I would rather have Drake Maye than this winning streak.

Sadly we'd have needed a top 3 pick to get Maye.   It's not crazy to think he may in fact go 1.1.  Even if we "only" won 3-4 games, it may not have been enough.

The flip side to this winning streak - so long as we don't make the playoffs, and it's because of our limitations on pass O (without being too obvious), it allows us to get out of Russ' contract via trade.  I refuse to believe any org will pay a 1st for him, but even a Day 2 pick and complete salary relief (dead money 46M instead of 68M), and getting out of 2025's guarantee of 37M kicking in by the time the 3rd day of the NFL 2024 new year (mid-March) kicks in, would be a fantastic result.   

And yes, our O is so neutered because of Russ' limitations, it's hard to think Paton & Payton  don’t  see it.  I would definitely view any 2024 result that makes Payton think we should stick it out with Russ as a massive L for us long-term, though.  If we can thread the needle where Russ is tradeable and we can move on, though, then the 2024 win streak will have been useful to us.

As for those who think we'd move back, keep in mind 1 fact from Payton's time in NO - when he saw someone he wanted in R1, he often wasn't afraid to move up.    I agree Paton's preference would be to accumulate more picks and move back, but if there's a QB Payton absolutely loves, we may see the opposite.   

Unlike Maye & Caleb Williams, I am unsure on anyone else being worth it, but I can't deny this isn't on Paton/Payton's radar, either.   NO R1 history in Payton's time says we have to consider this as a very real possibility.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Broncofan

[broncos_fan _from _uk]

Though we shouldn’t force a QB pick in RD 1, there are 3 on day 2 that I think would likely be upgrades over Russ long term. All have the passing traits necessary but lack the “wow” factor that fools people into taking QBs higher than they should. 101 mentioned Beck. The kid is arguably the best in the draft at reading a defense, maneuvering in the pocket and getting rid of the ball. His arm is just average. Reminds me of Chad Pennington with a better arm. I’m not sure why he’s not in the discussion for the #3 QB.

Michael Penix can sling it. Lacks pocket awareness. Probably a below average arm. Huge medical red flags. Reminds me of pre-injury Teddy Bridgwater. 

That brings us to San Hartman. The kid is a taller Drew Brees. Yes arm talent is just average, but he can make all of the throws. He will be older at 25. But he manipulates the pocket well, is able to quickly read the D, throws with anticipation, has a quick release, very accurate usually placing the ball where only his receiver can get it and in a position to lead them away from traffic and into YAC, is able to stand in the pocket to deliver the pass. Would be thrilled to get him in round 3.

[Dbrog24]

I'm super over us taking QBs on the 2nd day especially because our backup right now is fine. Especially this year though, we still don't have nearly any picks with only our first, and then one day 2 pick. Sure we have some super late ones and I don't really mind flyers on that sort of thing but we need people to contribute NOW. Give me 2 defensive players on the line some where or MAYBE offensive guard as others have mentioned.

Receiver is a waste IMO as Russ can't do anticipation throws anyway, nor have deep throws been a part of this win streak. I can pretty much guarantee no day 2 QB is going to be better than Russ even at this point in his decline. Say what you will about him, but he's been superb at not making mistakes and playing efficiently when asked to...that's vet level stuff. I guess I'm one of the few that don't really mind rolling with Russ next year because I don't see any better options out there. I mean what realistic QB would you guys really want instead? Cousins off a bad injury? No thanks..

[broncosfan_101]

7 hours ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

Which is a great comparison, stylistically. Both are one gap DTs who are best penetrating. Whether an even or odd front he would be our 3T. I agree with 101, he’s my top target right now.

 

I disagree with you here. Russ has been THE limiting factor of this offense. I have said this elsewhere, but Sean is scheming guys wide open and Russ still hits them off target. If he could simply hit a WR in stride the broncos would score 10-14 more points a game. But every. Single. Throw is off. Behind the receiver. In the dirt. Leading them directly into the defender. Jerry jeudy is legit one of the better route runners in the league, but he doesn’t have that dawg in him to fight for balls. You have to lead him away from the defender and Russ can’t do that at this point. So our passing game is reliant on throwing 50/50 balls to Sutton.

additionally, likely due to his height as this has been an issue his entire career, he cant hit between the hash marks less than 20 yards unless it’s a broken play where he throws once he’s scrambled beyond the OL.

That brings us to the fact that he can’t step up into the pocket (not sure if it’s a height thing) but he starts scrambling before there is pressure. It’s hard on the lineman when they don’t know where the QB is. Can’t block to protect a pocket cuz Russ will just escape the pocket and run into the defender. it’s why the IOL has suddenly looked so good on paper. Sean isn’t trying to make Russ stay in the pocket (and this get eaten by the internal pass rush), unfortunately as we’ve seen that means that the offense can never get into a rhythm. This team lives and does by the big play. Due to repeated short fields they’ve been able to make just enough big plays to score just enough points to win. But it’s not sustainable long term. 
 

TLDR: Russ is still getting worse but Sean is scheming him into a very limited scheme that allows hims some semblance of success. QB is still very much a need but we shouldn’t take one high just to take one. 

Russ is a borderline top 20 QB at this point. Not a championship guy at all. Old, expensive. But if we go 9-8, what’s the path forward at the position? Pick a non-elite prospect in the early 20’s and kill all the momentum from 2023? That’s a real tough sell in the locker room, I’d bet. Or do we trade our next 3 1st’s for one of the elite guys? Do we sign Kirk Cousins?

Like, I don’t see any great options here. If Payton sees a guy within reasonable range of our spot that he believes in, go nuts. But it’s almost impossible to see Russ anywhere else in 2024-25 than Denver, even if that happens. 

[7DnBrnc53]

6 hours ago, Broncofan said:

The flip side to this winning streak - so long as we don't make the playoffs, and it's because of our limitations on pass O (without being too obvious), it allows us to get out of Russ' contract via trade.  I refuse to believe any org will pay a 1st for him, but even a Day 2 pick and complete salary relief (dead money 46M instead of 68M), and getting out of 2025's guarantee of 37M kicking in by the time the 3rd day of the NFL 2024 new year (mid-March) kicks in, would be a fantastic result.   

And yes, our O is so neutered because of Russ' limitations, it's hard to think Russ doesn't see it.  I would definitely view any 2024 result that makes Payton think we should stick it out with Russ as a massive L for us long-term, though.  If we can thread the needle where Russ is tradeable and we can move on, though, then the 2024 win streak will have been useful to us.

I hope you are right. That contract is an albatross, and he isn't going to take them too far.

[Broncofan]

16 hours ago, broncosfan_101 said:

Russ is a borderline top 20 QB at this point. Not a championship guy at all. Old, expensive. But if we go 9-8, what’s the path forward at the position? Pick a non-elite prospect in the early 20’s and kill all the momentum from 2023? That’s a real tough sell in the locker room, I’d bet. Or do we trade our next 3 1st’s for one of the elite guys? Do we sign Kirk Cousins?

Like, I don’t see any great options here. If Payton sees a guy within reasonable range of our spot that he believes in, go nuts. But it’s almost impossible to see Russ anywhere else in 2024-25 than Denver, even if that happens. 

The scenario I could see because of Payton's past draft history and past connections: 

1.  Payton sees a rookie QB he likes that’s close enough, we move up.    

2.  Paton deals Russ well before this - since team trading for him wants him in early (and no way you want to commit the 37M 2025 salary as fully guaranteed IMO).  

3. Paton signs Jameis Winston to be the 1-2 year cheap vet stopgap (then backup) guy well before the draft.   Winston is a UFA.   
 

Before there’s this big reaction - Payton took on Jameis as a project in NO after his TB flameout.    He signed him when no one else wanted him and installed him as the starter after Brees retired (it was Dennis Allen / Carmichael who benched him for Andy Dalton, not Payton).    I’m not saying Winston is the answer.    He would be the vet bridge for a rookie in this scenario.  
 

Ppl want  a cheap vet QB with arm talent that Payton can neuter weaknesses on and be better than Russ while they develop a rookie?   The past history and Payton’s ability to scheme-limit flaws, it’s an obvious fit.  
 

 

Again, I’m not sure there’s a guy other than Maye / Williams that’s worth moving up for (although I will agree Jayden Daniels has been impressive - but no way is it worth moving up to top 6-8 range to take him imo).   But I’m saying we’ve seen Payton go that way with guys he wants.     And if he goes that route there is a clear affordable vet option that Payton has history with - Jameis Winston.  Way cheaper and allows you to move on from Russ once and for all.   Just saying.   
 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Broncofan

[AKRNA]

13 hours ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

Which is a great comparison, stylistically. Both are one gap DTs who are best penetrating. Whether an even or odd front he would be our 3T. I agree with 101, he’s my top target right now.

 

I disagree with you here. Russ has been THE limiting factor of this offense. I have said this elsewhere, but Sean is scheming guys wide open and Russ still hits them off target. If he could simply hit a WR in stride the broncos would score 10-14 more points a game. But every. Single. Throw is off. Behind the receiver. In the dirt. Leading them directly into the defender. Jerry jeudy is legit one of the better route runners in the league, but he doesn’t have that dawg in him to fight for balls. You have to lead him away from the defender and Russ can’t do that at this point. So our passing game is reliant on throwing 50/50 balls to Sutton.

additionally, likely due to his height as this has been an issue his entire career, he cant hit between the hash marks less than 20 yards unless it’s a broken play where he throws once he’s scrambled beyond the OL.

That brings us to the fact that he can’t step up into the pocket (not sure if it’s a height thing) but he starts scrambling before there is pressure. It’s hard on the lineman when they don’t know where the QB is. Can’t block to protect a pocket cuz Russ will just escape the pocket and run into the defender. it’s why the IOL has suddenly looked so good on paper. Sean isn’t trying to make Russ stay in the pocket (and this get eaten by the internal pass rush), unfortunately as we’ve seen that means that the offense can never get into a rhythm. This team lives and does by the big play. Due to repeated short fields they’ve been able to make just enough big plays to score just enough points to win. But it’s not sustainable long term. 
 

TLDR: Russ is still getting worse but Sean is scheming him into a very limited scheme that allows hims some semblance of success. QB is still very much a need but we shouldn’t take one high just to take one. 

That's about as good a description of Russ's limitations in this offense as I've read. He's kind of the antithesis of who you want running Sid Gilmans offense. Think more Dan Fouts.

Strong, accurate arm, very sharp, reads defenses accurately and fast. Likes intermediate and deep patterns and loves going over the middle. Good pocket presence and shuffle to avoid the rush but actually running the ball never enters his mind. The ability to run, dual threat and all that, is an impediment, not an asset. Taking the hit and delivering the ball on time and target is what you're after.

If you decide to load the box to stop the run or blitz him he will burn you badly, not with a 5-10 yard scramble but with a dart, hitting a WR or TE in stride 20-30 yards downfield.

It's an amazing offense when run correctly (Fouts, Brees, and to a lesser extent John Hadl) with a strong emphasis on attacking all levels of the field.

Sadly, those aren't Russ's strengths. I'm pleased Russ is having some success and his ball security has improved a great deal but there's no way Sean is looking at him as anything more than a stop-gap. I believe it was @Broncofan who pointed out that at least his value to other teams has gone way up as the season progresses. That's a win for us in the long run.

[broncofan48]

3 hours ago, Broncofan said:

The scenario I could see because of Payton connections: 

1.  Payton sees a rookie QB he likes that’s close enough, we move up.    

2.  Paton deals Russ well before this - since team trading for him wants him in early (and no way you want to commit the 37M 2025 salary as fully guaranteed IMO).  

3. Paton signs Jameis Winston to be the one year cheap vet stopgap well before the draft.   Winston is a UFA.   
 

Before there’s this big reaction - Payton took on Jameis as a project in NO after his TB flameout.    He signed him when no one else wanted him.    I’m not saying Winston is the answer.    He would be the vet bridge for a rookie in this scenario.  
 

Ppl want  a cheap vet QB with arm talent that Payton can neuter weaknesses on and be better than Russ while they develop a rookie?   The past history and Payton’s ability to scheme-limit flaws, it’s an obvious fit.  
 

 

Again, I’m not sure there’s a guy other than Maye / Williams that’s worth moving up for (although I will agree Jayden Daniels has been impressive - but no way is it worth moving up to top 6-8 range to take him imo).   But I’m saying we’ve seen Payton go that way with guys he wants.     And if he goes that route there is a clear affordable vet option that Payton had history with - Jameis Winston.  Way cheaper and allows you to move on from Russ once and for all.   Just saying.   
 

 

Watching Jameis for a year would be great entertainment.  Might not go .500 but by for would it be entertaining 

[Broncofan]

10 hours ago, broncofan48 said:

Watching Jameis for a year would be great entertainment.  Might not go .500 but by for would it be entertaining 

Unchecked Jameis is fun to watch if you're a fantasy manager (or just like high-scoring games), but not fun to root for as a team fan.   BUT, and it's a big but - Payton's scheme was aimed at leveraging his abilities, and limiting his mistakes.   Very much like Russ - except if Jameis sees the middle guy, or the slant come open - he will sling it.   Limiting his TO-worthy plays are the challenge - and OC Pete Carmichael failed miserably last year (with Dennis Allen overseeing).

Here's the thing though - OC Carmichael sucks.   And I'm not exaggerating when I say he's as bad as Matt Canada, or Nathaniel Hackett (OK, Hackett's in a league on his own, but if Hackett is a -3 on a scale of 0-10, Canada's -2.5 and Carmichael is -2....while the rest of the league is probably at 2-10).    Derek Carr is the very definition of league-average to slightly better at his best, and slightly lower in a lot of situations, and his traits are a terrible fit for NO's O.   But Carmichael's compounding it in a huge way by being awful.   Lowest play-action rate in the league, even though they're supposedly a run team.    Zero motion, zero creativity.   And the players are noticing it, it's become media fodder over there.  And it's not the eye test that only shows it...

 

 

None of the above says Jameis would turn it around in a crazy way.   But the above shows how bad OC Carmichael is, so I'd take away the 2022-3 season view of Jameis, and look to what Payton was working on - which to me shows a cheap, flawed but very capable downfield thrower, who can hold the fort and be much better than Wilson is at actually letting the O operate fully....and again, way cheaper.    It's not an org-changer, but it's a way to get away from Russ and find a long-term rookie and not throw away a season completely. 

Again, I do NOT see Jameis Winston as the long-term answer.   But if Payton wants to move on from Russ this offseason, bringing in Jameis to be a 1-2 year bridge and find a rookie this year, it would not be at all crazy to see it go down that way.

Still, this thread's about the draft, so I'll stop there - but I'm leaving this as a marker for how Payton & Paton could get away from Russ this offseason, still compete, and look for a future QB.    And again, because of Payton's past history, I'd say this is a real scenario, provided Jameis hits UFA (and again, don't confuse this with me saying Jameis is the long-term answer lol).  

Edited November 30, 2023 by Broncofan

[lomaxgrUK]

19 hours ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

 

That brings us to San Hartman. The kid is a taller Drew Brees. Yes arm talent is just average, but he can make all of the throws. He will be older at 25. But he manipulates the pocket well, is able to quickly read the D, throws with anticipation, has a quick release, very accurate usually placing the ball where only his receiver can get it and in a position to lead them away from traffic and into YAC, is able to stand in the pocket to deliver the pass. Would be thrilled to get him in round 3.

I know absolutely nothing about College Football, but I recognised the name and googled it. He's the kid from the Netflix show that I watched that follows HS QBs. Sam seemed a really good kid on that show. I think he played for a sucky HS but didn't complain at all, vs Spencer Rattler who was an absolute douchebag (I can see he might be in this draft class too).

Obviously not going to hold it against a guy for being a ****** at 17 years old.

[broncosfan_101]

17 hours ago, Broncofan said:

The scenario I could see because of Payton's past draft history and past connections: 

1.  Payton sees a rookie QB he likes that’s close enough, we move up.    

2.  Paton deals Russ well before this - since team trading for him wants him in early (and no way you want to commit the 37M 2025 salary as fully guaranteed IMO).  

3. Paton signs Jameis Winston to be the 1-2 year cheap vet stopgap (then backup) guy well before the draft.   Winston is a UFA.   
 

Before there’s this big reaction - Payton took on Jameis as a project in NO after his TB flameout.    He signed him when no one else wanted him and installed him as the starter after Brees retired (it was Dennis Allen / Carmichael who benched him for Andy Dalton, not Payton).    I’m not saying Winston is the answer.    He would be the vet bridge for a rookie in this scenario.  
 

Ppl want  a cheap vet QB with arm talent that Payton can neuter weaknesses on and be better than Russ while they develop a rookie?   The past history and Payton’s ability to scheme-limit flaws, it’s an obvious fit.  
 

 

Again, I’m not sure there’s a guy other than Maye / Williams that’s worth moving up for (although I will agree Jayden Daniels has been impressive - but no way is it worth moving up to top 6-8 range to take him imo).   But I’m saying we’ve seen Payton go that way with guys he wants.     And if he goes that route there is a clear affordable vet option that Payton has history with - Jameis Winston.  Way cheaper and allows you to move on from Russ once and for all.   Just saying.   
 

 

A couple BIG problems here, in my opinion:

1. Moving Russ has to be done so much earlier than any draft boards could be settled. Pulling that trigger means forcing Sean to choose from draft options that he might not like. You also may as well publish our entire draft plan at that point. ‘Hmmm you guys I think the Broncos are gonna take a QB early…’ You don’t say

2. Sean Payton might have the cachet to actually pull this off, but imagine walking into that locker room after trading Russ, and looking guys like Garett Bolles and Justin Simmons in the eyes. It’s very possible that they’ll play their first .500-or-better season this year, we seem to have real momentum going forward, and now you’re telling them that the plan is to more or less punt 2024. I don’t disagree that it’s a good strategic plan for the franchise long term, but that often doesn’t matter to the players. These guys wanna play playoff football, and trading Russ is just about the surest way to eliminate that possibility for it to happen for them in Denver. Again, that doesn’t mean you don’t still move forward with your plan, but if Sean can’t get 100% buy-in from the vets, you’ve gotta look at a significant teardown of the roster. 

[Broncofan]

46 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said:

A couple BIG problems here, in my opinion:

1. Moving Russ has to be done so much earlier than any draft boards could be settled. Pulling that trigger means forcing Sean to choose from draft options that he might not like. You also may as well publish our entire draft plan at that point. ‘Hmmm you guys I think the Broncos are gonna take a QB early…’ You don’t say

2. Sean Payton might have the cachet to actually pull this off, but imagine walking into that locker room after trading Russ, and looking guys like Garett Bolles and Justin Simmons in the eyes. It’s very possible that they’ll play their first .500-or-better season this year, we seem to have real momentum going forward, and now you’re telling them that the plan is to more or less punt 2024. I don’t disagree that it’s a good strategic plan for the franchise long term, but that often doesn’t matter to the players. These guys wanna play playoff football, and trading Russ is just about the surest way to eliminate that possibility for it to happen for them in Denver. Again, that doesn’t mean you don’t still move forward with your plan, but if Sean can’t get 100% buy-in from the vets, you’ve gotta look at a significant teardown of the roster. 

Yeah, to be clear - you can only trade Russell Wilson away if you also commit to signing Winston pretty much right away.  You will not know who is there in the draft.   And so it's more likely Paton signs Jameis Winston to a 2-year, 1-year fully guaranteed deal. 

The 2 in combination is why you may not see a trade until just at / before the new year starts - because that's in theory when you can approach and sign the FA's.       That would be in March.  And yeah, you won't know if you have your draft guy.  But it's why IMO a Wilson trade comes in tandem with a Winston signing.

To your comment re: the vets - if they realize WIlson's the guy who's holding the O back, though - they will understand far more on trading him.   And if he's as much of a weirdo in the locker room as he appears to be, it's not nearly as tough of a sell if he's not playing at a near-elite level.    If Wilson was playing like A-Rod, different story.   But if we can see he's the limiting step to the O, I'm pretty confident the players will see it too.

Still, as you alluded to, there's no scenario in which Paton trades Russell Wilson away without having a vet bridge in place that keeps the team as competitive as with Wilson.  As much as ppl like to think well of Jarred Stidham, that's not the solution.  But again, I have to stress how much Payton himself thought of Winston as a bridge - he went in 2021 with WInston as the starter and they were 5-2 with him.   The ACL injury is what derailed him - and then Payton left.

To be really clear, I'm not pimping Winston as the franchise long-term solution - but as you said, the only way we trade Wilson is if there's a viable option for 2024.   That's where Winston comes in.   It's not the long-term solution, but it's the bridge that allows Payton to then keep looking for the true long-term fit.    And to the point about what Russ can't do - Jameis is a TO-prone guy, and that's what kills him - but he can make all the throws Russell can't.   And he'll offer similar mobility.  Again, his flaws make him far from the long-term solution.  But if you want short-term improvement over Russ, with Payton guiding & restricting his flaws (unlike OC Carmichael) - it's a very plausible scenario. 

I'll go one step further - if Wilson gets traded, I think it will come in-tandem with Winston coming to DEN shortly afterwards.   And then it allows Payton enough time to find "his guy".     I think the harder scenario is Wilson playing well enough to get trade value.  Even now, I'm skeptical teams are sold...but at least now, they're likely open to considering it...which is 100000 miles further along than we were this time last year lol.

 

Anyways....back to the Prospects discussion (it's definitely relevant, since going with a rookie QB is only flying if we have a stopgap that's better than Stidham IMO, but that's enough for now lol).

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Broncofan

[broncosfan_101]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:21 PM, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

Though we shouldn’t force a QB pick in RD 1, there are 3 on day 2 that I think would likely be upgrades over Russ long term. All have the passing traits necessary but lack the “wow” factor that fools people into taking QBs higher than they should. 101 mentioned Beck. The kid is arguably the best in the draft at reading a defense, maneuvering in the pocket and getting rid of the ball. His arm is just average. Reminds me of Chad Pennington with a better arm. I’m not sure why he’s not in the discussion for the #3 QB.

Michael Penix can sling it. Lacks pocket awareness. Probably a below average arm. Huge medical red flags. Reminds me of pre-injury Teddy Bridgwater. 

That brings us to San Hartman. The kid is a taller Drew Brees. Yes arm talent is just average, but he can make all of the throws. He will be older at 25. But he manipulates the pocket well, is able to quickly read the D, throws with anticipation, has a quick release, very accurate usually placing the ball where only his receiver can get it and in a position to lead them away from traffic and into YAC, is able to stand in the pocket to deliver the pass. Would be thrilled to get him in round 3.

I’m really not a Hartman guy. 34 picks in 3 seasons from a guy who I certainly wouldn’t classify as a gunslinger is a tough look. Personally, I’d have Bo Nix in this second tier instead. I’ve been watching some of his Auburn tape lately, and that’s good stuff. I’m also encouraged by the fact that he’s learned two entirely different offences in his college career. 

9 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Yeah, to be clear - you can only trade Russell Wilson away if you also commit to signing Winston pretty much right away.  You will not know who is there in the draft.   And so it's more likely Paton signs Jameis Winston to a 2-year, 1-year fully guaranteed deal. 

The 2 in combination is why you may not see a trade until just at / before the new year starts - because that's in theory when you can approach and sign the FA's.       That would be in March.  And yeah, you won't know if you have your draft guy.  But it's why IMO a Wilson trade comes in tandem with a Winston signing.

To your comment re: the vets - if they realize WIlson's the guy who's holding the O back, though - they will understand far more on trading him.   And if he's as much of a weirdo in the locker room as he appears to be, it's not nearly as tough of a sell if he's not playing at a near-elite level.    If Wilson was playing like A-Rod, different story.   But if we can see he's the limiting step to the O, I'm pretty confident the players will see it too.

Still, as you alluded to, there's no scenario in which Paton trades Russell Wilson away without having a vet bridge in place that keeps the team as competitive as with Wilson.  As much as ppl like to think well of Jarred Stidham, that's not the solution.  But again, I have to stress how much Payton himself thought of Winston as a bridge - he went in 2021 with WInston as the starter and they were 5-2 with him.   The ACL injury is what derailed him - and then Payton left.

To be really clear, I'm not pimping Winston as the franchise long-term solution - but as you said, the only way we trade Wilson is if there's a viable option for 2024.   That's where Winston comes in.   It's not the long-term solution, but it's the bridge that allows Payton to then keep looking for the true long-term fit.    And to the point about what Russ can't do - Jameis is a TO-prone guy, and that's what kills him - but he can make all the throws Russell can't.   And he'll offer similar mobility.  Again, his flaws make him far from the long-term solution.  But if you want short-term improvement over Russ, with Payton guiding & restricting his flaws (unlike OC Carmichael) - it's a very plausible scenario. 

I'll go one step further - if Wilson gets traded, I think it will come in-tandem with Winston coming to DEN shortly afterwards.   And then it allows Payton enough time to find "his guy".     I think the harder scenario is Wilson playing well enough to get trade value.  Even now, I'm skeptical teams are sold...but at least now, they're likely open to considering it...which is 100000 miles further along than we were this time last year lol.

 

Anyways....back to the Prospects discussion (it's definitely relevant, since going with a rookie QB is only flying if we have a stopgap that's better than Stidham IMO, but that's enough for now lol).

 

Like I said, if Sean Payton’s the one telling guys, ‘we couldn’t win with Russ,’ there’s a decent chance he gets buy-in. Especially after the job he’s done this season, I’d hope the level of trust inside that locker room is extremely high. And if he likes the second tier of QB’s as much as I do, where I’ve got real belief in at least 7 guys in this draft to become quality starters in the right pro environment, then it doesn’t matter as much that teams know our plan. But I’d be fearful that we would telegraph our intent, and then fall in love with a specific QB, making it impossible not to significantly overpay to get him. 

[broncos_fan _from _uk]

13 hours ago, broncosfan_101 said:

I’m really not a Hartman guy. 34 picks in 3 seasons from a guy who I certainly wouldn’t classify as a gunslinger is a tough look. Personally, I’d have Bo Nix in this second tier instead. I’ve been watching some of his Auburn tape lately, and that’s good stuff. I’m also encouraged by the fact that he’s learned two entirely different offences in his college career. 

Eh, I’m not as worried about that. He was on some bad WF teams and still put up good numbers. Plus he’s had like 60 starts in college football. His ceiling is definitely not as high but I think he can be a very good QB for a long time. Think a better Kirk Cousins. 
 

and I love Bo Nix. I was using him as a reason to pass on a QB not named Lawrence or maybe Fields in 2021 

My concern is that he will be a heisman finalist and that will push him into being the #3 QB taken.