LD696 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 5 hours ago, AngusMcFife said: An alternate take: If you remove 2007 from Brady's career, I'd say he wouldn't be considered GOAT any more. In order to be a true GOAT you need to have a peak that is unmatched. But, given Brady's paltry 3 All Pros over his entire career, it is evident he never consistently outperformed his peers. The 2007 season is a true outlier. Now, the degree to which Randy Moss carried Brady to his one truly dominant year can be debated. But you can certainly see Moss's outsized effects he has had on other QBs such as Cunningham and Culpepper. (I'll preface this by saying that I do not care about the GOAT debate in its current format and would prefer a positional GOAT breakdown... and then wouldn't care about that either, because I'm not a greatman-ist, but...) Oh, great prince of Fife, All-Pro is only a measure of regular season "greatness" but unfortunately the actual season does not end there. Whatever people consider "great" in a player, probably involves some sort of post-season heroics/wins that an All-Pro selection cannot gauge. Off the top of my head these QBs were proposed to be GOATs here on FF: Joe Montana, the origiGOAT: 3× First-team All-Pro, 2× Second-team All-Pro; Peyton Manning: 7× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; QAaron Rodgers: 4× First-team All-Pro, 1× Second-team All-Pro; Drew Brees: 1× First-team All-Pro, 4× Second-team All-Pro (I won't dig it up, but yes, there was a thread where someone argued him as the GOAT); Tom Brady: 3× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro. Some other notable QBs, who, according to the paltry number of their All-Pro selections, never consistently outperformed their peers are: Dan Marino: 3× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; John Elway: 0× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; Steve Young: 3× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; Brett Favre: 3× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; Outside of the outlier in Manning, not many GOAT-adjacent QBs dominate the league for more than 3-4 regular seasons, huh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Gronk and AB following him like a lost puppy were very influential imo. Before that he was a HOFer paired with the GOAT coach. But Manning has always been more capable. After going to TB the doubts were erased. His off the field is just to impressive to debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 5 hours ago, LD696 said: (I'll preface this by saying that I do not care about the GOAT debate in its current format and would prefer a positional GOAT breakdown... and then wouldn't care about that either, because I'm not a greatman-ist, but...) Oh, great prince of Fife, All-Pro is only a measure of regular season "greatness" but unfortunately the actual season does not end there. Whatever people consider "great" in a player, probably involves some sort of post-season heroics/wins that an All-Pro selection cannot gauge. Off the top of my head these QBs were proposed to be GOATs here on FF: Joe Montana, the origiGOAT: 3× First-team All-Pro, 2× Second-team All-Pro; Peyton Manning: 7× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; QAaron Rodgers: 4× First-team All-Pro, 1× Second-team All-Pro; Drew Brees: 1× First-team All-Pro, 4× Second-team All-Pro (I won't dig it up, but yes, there was a thread where someone argued him as the GOAT); Tom Brady: 3× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro. Some other notable QBs, who, according to the paltry number of their All-Pro selections, never consistently outperformed their peers are: Dan Marino: 3× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; John Elway: 0× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; Steve Young: 3× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; Brett Favre: 3× First-team All-Pro, 3× Second-team All-Pro; Outside of the outlier in Manning, not many GOAT-adjacent QBs dominate the league for more than 3-4 regular seasons, huh. I appreciate the breakdown. I think it is fairly well established in GOAT arguments (in all sports) that a GOAT should: - Lead team to multiple championships (or win multiple championships in individual sports) - Have a long sustained career of excellence - Demonstrate a peak performance that is unmatched by their peers It seems to me that other GOATs such as Michael Jordan or Babe Ruth check all these categories. However Brady's peak performance is not really outstanding outside of 2007, which is only one year (and driven by Moss). When you look across several years, you'll find that other QBs far surpass Brady's peak (Manning 03-06, Marino 1984-1986). I'm in agreement that you really have to compare GOATs across positions. For instance, I think Gronk is pretty clearly the GOAT TE, much more so than Brady is the GOAT QB, simply because when Gronk was at his peak, nobody could rightly claim to be better. Whereas when Brady was at his peak, I'd still say Manning 03-06 and Marino 84-86 were slinging it better than he was. Brady is still a top-10 of all time QB, but is more of an accumulator who was blessed with great teams and coaching rather than the single best player I've ever seen at the position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said: I appreciate the breakdown. I think it is fairly well established in GOAT arguments (in all sports) that a GOAT should: - Lead team to multiple championships (or win multiple championships in individual sports) - Have a long sustained career of excellence - Demonstrate a peak performance that is unmatched by their peers It seems to me that other GOATs such as Michael Jordan or Babe Ruth check all these categories. However Brady's peak performance is not really outstanding outside of 2007, which is only one year (and driven by Moss). When you look across several years, you'll find that other QBs far surpass Brady's peak (Manning 03-06, Marino 1984-1986). I'm in agreement that you really have to compare GOATs across positions. For instance, I think Gronk is pretty clearly the GOAT TE, much more so than Brady is the GOAT QB, simply because when Gronk was at his peak, nobody could rightly claim to be better. Whereas when Brady was at his peak, I'd still say Manning 03-06 and Marino 84-86 were slinging it better than he was. Brady is still a top-10 of all time QB, but is more of an accumulator who was blessed with great teams and coaching rather than the single best player I've ever seen at the position. because he didnt lead the league in passing yards or TD THIS season lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggie. Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) "Brady was blessed with great teams" Peyton Manning had Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, routinely elite offensive lines with Jeff Saturday and Tarik Glenn, underrated defenses under Dungy and a GM WHO GOT THE RULES OF THE GAME CHANGED TO HELP GOLDEN BOY BEAT THE PATRIOTS. Edited January 28, 2022 by biggie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 3 hours ago, biggie. said: "Brady was blessed with great teams" Peyton Manning had Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, routinely elite offensive lines with Jeff Saturday and Tarik Glenn, underrated defenses under Dungy and a GM WHO GOT THE RULES OF THE GAME CHANGED TO HELP GOLDEN BOY BEAT THE PATRIOTS. And then he went to Denver and was on an even more stacked team lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggie. Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 14 minutes ago, lancerman said: And then he went to Denver and was on an even more stacked team lol Plus he went to a team that won a playoff game with TIM TEBOW, yet it took him two seasons to get to a SB and four to win it all (albeit as a zombie). Brady went to a 7-9 team that hadn't won a playoff game since 2003 and won a SB year one during peak COVID. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iloxygenil Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 Being a cheating scum removes him from GOAT status in any argument possible. If he was the GOAT he wouldn’t have had to cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJG Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 (edited) On 1/25/2022 at 9:41 AM, biggie. said: Brady just being a game manager during his first three Super Bowl wins is a myth. Maybe for the first one since it was only his 17th start, but he led the league in touchdown passes in 2002 and teams were truly starting to fear him by 2003. In Super Bowl 38, the game where I personally think the Tom Brady as we know him was truly born, there were Panthers players on the sideline that said "it's not over...not with that dude at QB." Brady became a Hall of Famer as soon as he won his third Super Bowl. He became the greatest QB when he won his fourth. He became the greatest player in football history when he won his fifth. He joined Jordan/Gretzky/Ruth for the sports Mt. Rushmore afterwards. This narrative also confuses me. Here's where Brady ranked each year from 2001-2006 based on passing yards/TDs: 2001: 22nd yards, 22nd TDs 2002: 6th yards, 1st TDs 2003: 6th yards, 10th TDs 2004: 10th yards, 6th TDs, 2005: 1st yards, 3rd TDs 2006: 7th yards, 6th TDs So between 2002 and 2006 he was on average 6th in yards and about 5th in TDs. For comparison's sake Joe Burrow was 6th in yards and Dak Prescott was 5th in TDs this year. If guys like that were winning multiple Super Bowls they would certainly be considered all time greats already. Guys that I might consider game managers this year like Jimmy G and Mac Jones were 12th/13th in yards and 19th/15th in TDs. The only year you could say he was putting up game manager numbers was 2001, and that was his first season as a starter. Edited January 29, 2022 by AJG 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 He became the goat after winning his 4th super bowl. 4/6 in super bowls with all the records to go with it. I think you can remove everything after that and still consider him the goat. Everything after those first 4 was cake on top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Either half tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 On 1/28/2022 at 11:03 PM, AJG said: This narrative also confuses me. Here's where Brady ranked each year from 2001-2006 based on passing yards/TDs: 2001: 22nd yards, 22nd TDs 2002: 6th yards, 1st TDs 2003: 6th yards, 10th TDs 2004: 10th yards, 6th TDs, 2005: 1st yards, 3rd TDs 2006: 7th yards, 6th TDs So between 2002 and 2006 he was on average 6th in yards and about 5th in TDs. For comparison's sake Joe Burrow was 6th in yards and Dak Prescott was 5th in TDs this year. If guys like that were winning multiple Super Bowls they would certainly be considered all time greats already. Guys that I might consider game managers this year like Jimmy G and Mac Jones were 12th/13th in yards and 19th/15th in TDs. The only year you could say he was putting up game manager numbers was 2001, and that was his first season as a starter. He was also doing this with very limited weapons in a conservative offense playing in the elements. 2002-2006 Brady was a top-2 QB in the NFL, which was widely acknowledge at the time, outside of a handful of haters and narrow-minded people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggie. Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 7 minutes ago, mission27 said: He was also doing this with very limited weapons in a conservative offense playing in the elements. In OLD NFL nonetheless. Considering Brady only started 14 games in 2001, at the pace he went for touchdowns he would have been in the top ten had he played all 16 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJG Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 37 minutes ago, mission27 said: He was also doing this with very limited weapons in a conservative offense playing in the elements. 2002-2006 Brady was a top-2 QB in the NFL, which was widely acknowledge at the time, outside of a handful of haters and narrow-minded people. I only really started watching football in 2009, so I never actually got to see him play before then. All this talk plus his retirement makes me want to go back on watch those early seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awsi Dooger Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 This is very easy for me because I had a very good friend from Las Vegas who was murdered in spring 2004. Larry wagered on NFL football and very little else. He entered the Hilton Pick the Pros contest every year and was determined to win it. You had to put up $1500 to enter. I did it one year when it was still at the original location, the Castaways, and entry fee was $1000. Anyway, before his death Larry was already emphasizing that Brady would go down in history as unquestionably the greatest of all time. He said it so matter of factly, as if there were no question about it. Frozen in time, the early 2004 perspective. That's what I think about every time I hear the nonsense about game manager. Brady's regular season stats weren't overwhelming during those early seasons but anyone who was paying attention fully understood it meant nothing when pivotal games and drives were at stake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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