Stafford versus Rivers

[lancerman]

2 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

1.)You were never able to explain how the 79 chargers who had 7 all pros (not even including Winslow) next to Fouts are “blown out the water” by the Current Rams. 

2.)Fouts Wouldn’t  be top 5 in this era either so why knock Stafford? All those QBs are better than Dan ever was. 

All Pros are a singular year award with a dozen factors that go into it. Stafford had on his team:

1. Aaron Donald the best defensive player of the last decade and the only guy who really has an argument with LT. Better than absolutely anybody Fouts had on his team. 

2. Von Miller. Top 5 defensive player of this era and a sure fire Hall of Famer. 

3. Jalen Ramsey. Had 3 All Pros in the last 5 seasons including this year and is easily one of the top two cornerbacks in football

4. Cooper Kupp. Completed the best single season a WR has ever had in this league. 

5. OBJ. Top 10 WR in the last decade had a resurgent year on the Rams back to top form. 

6. Andrew Whitworth. One of the top lineman of the past decade playing at an extremely high level. And you can make a case he was the best pass blocking tackle in the league this year. 
 

Now let’s go through the All Pros on the Chargers that year. 
 

1. Fours who you left off. Yes he counted as a reason that team was stacked 

2. John Jefferson WR. The Rams had Kupp and OBJ. Even losing Woods their WR set was better than that Chargers team 

3. There were 3 defensive lineman who got all All Pros. Dean/Wilkerson/Washington. Nobody on Earth would take that over Donald and Von Miller. They are just at another level as players. Even Fred Dean who was the only HOF’er of the bunch is just not their level by any metric. 
 

4. So the only real argument is that the Chargers had a better offensive line with 3 All Pros. But the Rams still had Whitworth who played at an elite level and they were still the 7th ranked line (according to PFF) in the league, and some outlets ranked it as high as 3) so it was still a strong unit so it was a very strong unit. 
 

So of all the All Pros, the Rams had better units at WR and defensive line and the only argument is the offensive line. 
 

And that team was more reliant on their All Pro QB. 
 

So no just saying “this team had x many all pros is simplistic argument”. It’s pretty clear the current Rams are at a far higher level. Better d line, better WR’s, better secondary. Negligible difference in RB. 
 

The only thing the Chargers definitely had better was offensive line (which still the Rams had one of the better ones in the league) and QB which undermines your point. 
 

Maybe if Winslow played a lot that year at his peak level you’d have a better argument, but no way in hell in the actual circumstances. 
 

Also let’s be real, from the time Stafford was in the league people routinely would rank Brady Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Ben, Rivers, Ryan, Newton ahead of him pretty consistently. Fouts was winning All Pros at a time Joe Montana who is viewed as the second best QB ever after Brady and the GOAT until like 6 years ago was in the league and still got one when Marino broke out and was lighting it up. 
 

Please spare me the “you’re being unfair to Stafford because of era”. Stafford was fringe top 10 and there are guys ahead of him that will never sniff the Hall of Fame. There are 3 guys in the 80’s who most people would rank over Fouts and Fouts is routinely considered 4th. Montana, Marino and Elway. One of those guys was the GOAT, one of those guys is considered the greatest passer ever and best statistical QB and one the other is an easy top 10. 
 

Stafford wasn’t even viewed as better than Rivers, Ryan, Cam or Ben through his career. Seriously you just have to engineer an argument to even propose that Stafford was better than a guy who was routinely getting All Pros while playing with era’s GOAT over Stafford who has one Pro Bowl to his name. Hell pretend he has two if you want to complain about this year. 
 

Any analysis beyond surface level shows how ridiculous this is. 

 

[LeotheLion]

Would Stafford be the best SB winning QB not in the HOF if he doesn't make it? It seems to me that the best QB that is eligible and not in is Phill Simms. Wasn't alive to see him but I get the vibe that he was in the same Stafford category of never elite but always above average.

[FrantikRam]

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Would you say Joe Flacco is better than Rivers? Than Stafford?  

His playoff resume is vastly superior to Stafford's.
- 10-5 career playoff record
- Super Bowl MVP
- Had the greatest postseason run in the history of the game (11 TDs, 0 INTs)
- Beat greatest dynasty in the history of the sport 2x in 2009 and 2012

 

Good point, but I think we would all agree that Flacco wouldn't belong in the conversation. If I wanted to put a fine point on it I'd just say that his career regular season passer rating of 84 compared to Stafford's 91 and Rivers 95 would be the disqualifier.

But it's a good point.

[lancerman]

15 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

Would Stafford be the best SB winning QB not in the HOF if he doesn't make it? It seems to me that the best QB that is eligible and not in is Phill Simms. Wasn't alive to see him but I get the vibe that he was in the same Stafford category of never elite but always above average.

Theismann was an MVP, OPOY and All Pro. Didn’t get in. 

You are right Simms is about the same. 

Flacco is probably about the same area. 
 

The bigger issue is look at the SB winning QB’s who got in. 
 

Starr has multiple, and an MVP

Namath and Dawson were the two studs of the AFL and have MVP and All Pro equivalents 

Unitas has 3 MVP’s 

Griese has multiple titles and some All Pros and way more Pro Bowls

Bradshaw has 4 and a league MVP. 

Staubach has 2 an All Pro and All Decade 

Stabler has an MVP an OPOY and is on the All Decade team 

Montana has 4 and two MVP’s,

Aikman has 3

Young has his ring and 2 MVP’s 

Farve has 3 MVP’s 

Elway has 2, set the record for going and has an MVP

Warner has 2 MVP’s and we to two lot SB’s 

Peyton Manning has 2 and went to 4 and has 5 MVP’s 

The big question will be if Russell Wilson gets in actually. But the guys who won rings and got in usually either have multiple or an MVP to go with it 

 

 

 

[Tightspiral7]

LT kept Theismann out of the HOF, as Joe had a number of productive years left in him if not for that horrific injury.

Theismann had a pretty awesome peak in 83 - a far better peak than Stafford could ever touch. In fact, one could argue that Theismann had the third highest QB peak of the 80s behind Marino and Montana. Stafford ain't on Theismann's level.

Stafford is in fact more comparable to Phil Simms, but Simms has something over Stafford - he produced one of the very best performances in SB history against the Broncos.

[DefenseWinsChampionships]

Matthew Stafford is a SB winner and Philip Rivers isn't. 

Philip Rivers couldn't even make a SB despite an awesome Vincent Jackson @ WR with a HOF RB in LaDainian Tomlinson and an All-Time great TE in Antonio Gates. 

Rivers = one of the most overrated QBs of All-Time and an absolute loser for not getting it done in SD. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by DefenseWinsChampionships

[Soko]

14 hours ago, LeotheLion said:

Would Stafford be the best SB winning QB not in the HOF if he doesn't make it? It seems to me that the best QB that is eligible and not in is Phill Simms. Wasn't alive to see him but I get the vibe that he was in the same Stafford category of never elite but always above average.

Russ.

[DefenseWinsChampionships]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Russ.

I'd take Matthew Stafford over Russell Wilson.

Because I think Stafford is going to become the NFL's next version of John Elway ala two 1st overall picks who went on to win multiple SBs (I think Stafford wins another one). 

Also Stafford is 34/Wilson is 33 and I think Russell Wilson falls off a cliff moving forward while Stafford's greatness lasts much longer. 

[LeotheLion]

7 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Russ.

I assume Russ makes it but he's a good one if not. 

[Soggust]

20 hours ago, lancerman said:

Theismann was an MVP, OPOY and All Pro. Didn’t get in. 

You are right Simms is about the same. 

Flacco is probably about the same area. 
 

I was with you the whole way, but I'm busting out my pitchfork and drawing a line here.

edit - Just realized, I'm maybe okay if we are talking purely about HoF case (only because Flacco's whole argument is the Eli Manning "but what about that playoff run"), but comparing Flacco's career as a whole or certainly skillset is how I read this and now I'm triggered =p.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Soggust

[DerbyRam]

Stafford still has a narrative around him, even winning a Super Bowl in his very first year out of Detroit hasn't been enough for some.

He had three game winning drives in the play-offs, including one in the second half of the Super Bowl missing his second best receiving target (Woods) his third best receiving target (OBJ) his fourth best receiving target (Higbee) utilising a sophmore tight end (4th on the depth chart behind three injured players in Higbee, Mundt & Blanton) and he got it done. All this whilst the running game was absolutely non-existent.

Talk about being up against it in the biggest moment of your career, against the very best team in a STACKED AFC. He deserves an enormous amount credit, honestly don't think many QBs have won the Championship with such in-game adversity. 

I'm excited to see what he can do in 2022. He's done everything he can actually do in year one - including breaking numerous franchise records along the way. I'm confident that by the end his career there won't be a comparison to be had between him & Rivers. 

[diehardlionfan]

On 2/14/2022 at 8:49 PM, Jakuvious said:

Rivers is retired. Yes, Stafford is better than a retired QB would be. The entire time they were in the league, you would never have found a QB ranking with Stafford over Rivers. Their entire career. People knew Stafford's supporting cast was a problem, and still, no one ever thought Stafford was better than Rivers when they were peers. Rivers made 8 pro bowls. Stafford made one. This was not even remotely a discussion before this year. This was not a close comparison, before this year, or even before this post season. One year does not override two 10+ year careers. Everything you're listing has happened literally in the last two months. This is the absolute worst kind of reactionary take.

How many players did Rivers play with that made pro bowls? How many actual or potential HOF players. Compare those numbers with Stafford.

Compare game winning drives, come from behind wins etc.

Using opinions on this forum as to which QB is better is irrelevant to actual people that have a vote.

Staffords entire career, posters like yourself have been dismissive of Stafford performances. Part of the reason is lack of prime time exposure and playoff success. Fans other than those who actually have watched each of his games are simply looking at individual game stat lines and the lack of victories. 

How many head coaches and offensive coordinators did Stafford have to deal with? Rivers?

Sonny Jurgensen is very similar in standing with Stafford prior to this year. Jurgensen was a fabulous QB that lacked the supporting cast of his contemporaries and he made it in the HOF never winning a playoff game and only logging  two winning seasons.

Rivers played with far superior talent except this season. Stafford entire time in Detroit he never had a running game or an all star on his offensive line. 

Football as you know is a team sport and while in Detroit he had a legitimate playoff calibre team once!

 

 

 

 

 

[Jakuvious]

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

How many players did Rivers play with that made pro bowls? How many actual or potential HOF players. Compare those numbers with Stafford.

Compare game winning drives, come from behind wins etc.

Using opinions on this forum as to which QB is better is irrelevant to actual people that have a vote.

Staffords entire career, posters like yourself have been dismissive of Stafford performances. Part of the reason is lack of prime time exposure and playoff success. Fans other than those who actually have watched each of his games are simply looking at individual game stat lines and the lack of victories. 

How many head coaches and offensive coordinators did Stafford have to deal with? Rivers?

Sonny Jurgensen is very similar in standing with Stafford prior to this year. Jurgensen was a fabulous QB that lacked the supporting cast of his contemporaries and he made it in the HOF never winning a playoff game and only logging  two winning seasons.

Rivers played with far superior talent except this season. Stafford entire time in Detroit he never had a running game or an all star on his offensive line. 

Football as you know is a team sport and while in Detroit he had a legitimate playoff calibre team once!

Sonny Jurgensen was an all-pro, 5 time pro-bowler, led the league in passing 5 times, led in passing TDs twice, twice received MVP votes, and made an all-decade team. Stafford led the league in attempts twice, made one pro-bowl, and led the league in interceptions once. There's also the slight difference in that not making the playoffs in the 1960s means you weren't one of the top 2 teams in football. He didn't win a playoff game in, for instance, 1961, because 10-4 was outclassed by the 11-3 Packers and the 10-3-1 Giants, and there was literally only 1 playoff game. Like, Bart Starr was a 5 time championship winner, and he has fewer playoff wins than Joe Flacco. The playoffs were a fundamentally different entity back in the 50s and 60s. Stafford is not Jurgensen.

And I want to be crystal clear, you can drop this idea of people putting down Stafford. That is not what this is. The Lions were my second favorite team for years. My girlfriend of 4 years in college was a Lions fan, and I watched every game from 09 - 13 that didn't clash with a Chiefs game. I like Stafford. Stafford is a good QB, and was underrated by some for a chunk of his career. But that does not mean this current narrative that is starting to take hold, that Stafford is a hall of fame QB, above a guy like Rivers who is on the cusp, is not ridiculous. Because it absolutely is ridiculous. What you actually do, matters more than what you might have done. I get the hypotheticals and the narrative around his team not being good (though the Chargers are getting massively overrated in this discourse, for the record.) But at the end of the day, he was not as good of a QB as Rivers, over the course of like 10 years. If we're talking a single year, one guy has a better OL and receivers or something, sure, fine. But this is a huge sample size, that blatantly favors Rivers, and now one year of top performance with an absolutely loaded supporting cast in LA is supposed to flip the entire comparison? No. That's genuinely stupid. And I would argue Stafford this year still didn't have a season matching Rivers's peak. Like, '09 Rivers got actual MVP votes, with an LT that was a shell of himself, with Vincent Jackson as his leading receiver, with an okay OL and a mid-tier scoring defense. People are talking like Rivers spent his entire career with LT and Gates and Neal and that insane OL from 2006, but he didn't. Most of his career his OL was subpar, the defense was okay, and ChargIRs was a meme for a reason. Was his cast still on average better than Stafford's? Sure, I'll agree to that. Does that override Rivers playing like a better QB literally their entire careers? No.

On the hall of fame question, when it's all said and done, it's likely that Rivers on the Chargers played with two hall of famers, LT and Gates. Stafford on the Lions will have at least one, in Calvin. Maybe two if Suh makes the cut. Though, throw in this year with the Rams, and you tack on Aaron Donald, Jalen Ramsey, Andrew Whitworth, Von Miller. Maybe Eric Weddle for both. Cooper Kupp would be projecting pretty heavily, but if he can maintain any of what he did this year, that ticket could get punched fast. So sure, Rivers did have one more hall of famer in San Diego than Stafford did in Detroit. But if that's the argument, the counter is that it took like 6 hall of famers for Stafford to finally have a playoff run, and Rivers never got that much help.

[Jameson_Neat]

35 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

 

And I want to be crystal clear, you can drop this idea of people putting down Stafford. That is not what this is. The Lions were my second favorite team for years. My girlfriend of 4 years in college was a Lions fan, and I watched every game from 09 - 13 that didn't clash with a Chiefs game. I like Stafford. Stafford is a good QB, and was underrated by some for a chunk of his career. But that does not mean this current narrative that is starting to take hold, that Stafford is a hall of fame QB, above a guy like Rivers who is on the cusp, is not ridiculous. Because it absolutely is ridiculous. What you actually do, matters more than what you might have done. I get the hypotheticals and the narrative around his team not being good (though the Chargers are getting massively overrated in this discourse, for the record.) But at the end of the day, he was not as good of a QB as Rivers, over the course of like 10 years. If we're talking a single year, one guy has a better OL and receivers or something, sure, fine. But this is a huge sample size, that blatantly favors Rivers, and now one year of top performance with an absolutely loaded supporting cast in LA is supposed to flip the entire comparison? No. That's genuinely stupid. And I would argue Stafford this year still didn't have a season matching Rivers's peak. Like, '09 Rivers got actual MVP votes, with an LT that was a shell of himself, with Vincent Jackson as his leading receiver, with an okay OL and a mid-tier scoring defense. People are talking like Rivers spent his entire career with LT and Gates and Neal and that insane OL from 2006, but he didn't. Most of his career his OL was subpar, the defense was okay, and ChargIRs was a meme for a reason. Was his cast still on average better than Stafford's? Sure, I'll agree to that. Does that override Rivers playing like a better QB literally their entire careers? No.

 

I'll just add that the Lions did have good talent in 2012-2015, but for whatever reason, and this includes Stafford not making a step up from average to an upper tier QB, it didn't come together.  By the time Stafford's game did improve, it was too late for the Lions.

And if people want to argue that Caldwell was a good coach and the Lions shouldn't have let him go, isn't that a knock on Stafford for not getting it done by making it into or winning in the playoffs?

It wasn't all Quinntricia-level bad.

 

 

[Tightspiral7]

12 hours ago, DefenseWinsChampionships said:

I'd take Matthew Stafford over Russell Wilson.

Because I think Stafford is going to become the NFL's next version of John Elway ala two 1st overall picks who went on to win multiple SBs (I think Stafford wins another one). 

Also Stafford is 34/Wilson is 33 and I think Russell Wilson falls off a cliff moving forward while Stafford's greatness lasts much longer. 

Sweet Jesus, now he's being compared to Elway...