2018 Draftable QB Discussion

[AkronsWitness]

Here are his game by game stats this year......how is this guy even projected in the 1st round let alone #1. Allen had 3 games with under 100 passing yards and 10 completions....

 

 

[bosko1616]

I have Allen ranked in the Lamar Jackson mason Rudolph range 

[Thomas5737]

3 minutes ago, bosko1616 said:

I have Allen ranked in the Lamar Jackson mason Rudolph range 

Allen has a lot better arm talent so his ceiling would be well above those two but I have Rudolph as a late 2nd prospect who could be a good game manager type and Jackson as a 3rd who could surprise like Watson did to a certain degree but Watson came in as a much better passer even though neither have great arms. Allen would probably be a 4th round prospect who you see if you can make something out of but not an option to start or play in a game for awhile.

Mayfield/Rosen/Darnold I have as top 5 prospects. Should be able to come in and start day 1 and certainly won't be further down than 2nd on the depth chart and only ride the bench year 1 if there is a horrible offensive line or you have a competent starter in place already.

[AkronsWitness]

15 minutes ago, bosko1616 said:

I have Allen ranked in the Lamar Jackson mason Rudolph range 

lol Im less generous. I honestly think he is a 4rd round talent being projected in the top 5 based on his size. His actual play is that of a 6th rounder.

I see no difference in Josh Allen and Cardale Jones as prospects and Cardale went in the 4th with better collegiate stats against far better competiton.

 

[Bernie's Curls]

14 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

lol Im less generous. I honestly think he is a 4rd round talent being projected in the top 5 based on his size. His actual play is that of a 6th rounder.

I see no difference in Josh Allen and Cardale Jones as prospects and Cardale went in the 4th with better collegiate stats against far better competiton.

 

Awww, c'mon now. Cardale Jones was a three-game backup QB boy-wonder, with absolutely no tape to recognize his flaws in such a short span. If he'd come out right after that Championship, he'd have been drafted in the 1st/2nd Round by some desperate team. I agree that Allen isn't my idea of a franchise QB, but he's got some moldable talents to provide as an NFL starter...eventually.

Haven't there been numerous allusions to Josh Allen being academically capable of assimilating coaching and playbooks from the Senior Bowl, Combine, and Interviews? You can't compare that to Cardale "Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain’t come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS." Jones.

[AkronsWitness]

14 minutes ago, Bernie's Curls said:

Awww, c'mon now. Cardale Jones was a three-game backup QB boy-wonder, with absolutely no tape to recognize his flaws in such a short span. If he'd come out right after that Championship, he'd have been drafted in the 1st/2nd Round by some desperate team. I agree that Allen isn't my idea of a franchise QB, but he's got some moldable talents to provide as an NFL starter...eventually.

Haven't there been numerous allusions to Josh Allen being academically capable of assimilating coaching and playbooks from the Senior Bowl, Combine, and Interviews? You can't compare that to Cardale "Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain’t come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS." Jones.

My point exactly, eventually. His off target throws rank him 302/355 of all college QBs in the past 8 years. He is horrifically inaccurate and was held under 100 passing yards in 3 games this season. If you cant dominate a crappy conference thats worse than the MAC, how can this guy dominate the Steelers?

In the 3 games he played this year against somewhat legit competition (Oregon, Boise St. and Iowa) he was 44/91 (48%) for 369 yards -- 1 TD -- 5 INT.

That is a mid/late round project. Not a top 3 pick in the draft.

[Bernie's Curls]

2 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

My point exactly, eventually. His off target throws rank him 302/355 of all college QBs in the past 8 years. He is horrifically inaccurate and was held under 100 passing yards in 3 games this season. If you cant dominate a crappy conference thats worse than the MAC, how can this guy dominate the Steelers?

In the 3 games he played this year against somewhat legit competition (Oregon, Boise St. and Iowa) he was 44/91 (48%) for 369 yards -- 1 TD -- 5 INT.

That is a mid/late round project. Not a top 3 pick in the draft.

Wasn't saying that he's a Top 3 Pick, I don't even think he's in the Top 3 at his position. Just was saying that he has many tools and has reportedly shown progress when exposed to adequate coaching at post-season prospect events. Which is why I didn't think Cardale Jones was a fair comparison, because Jones didn't seem to ever exhibit a flash again after the National Championship, nor did I hear of him "wow'ing" any NFL personnel with his grasp of playbook nuance. Although I was just surprised to find out that Jones scored a 25 on the Wonderlic, for what it's worth.

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, Bernie's Curls said:

Wasn't saying that he's a Top 3 Pick, I don't even think he's in the Top 3 at his position. Just was saying that he has many tools and has reportedly shown progress when exposed to adequate coaching at post-season prospect events. Which is why I didn't think Cardale Jones was a fair comparison, because Jones didn't seem to ever exhibit a flash again after the National Championship, nor did I hear of him "wow'ing" any NFL personnel with his grasp of playbook nuance. Although I was just surprised to find out that Jones scored a 25 on the Wonderlic, for what it's worth.

I think they are comparable prospects. Cardale threw for almost as many yards in each of their Jr. (final season) years yet threw 175 times to 270. Cardale also has great size good mobility and a strong arm. Also Cardale never lost a game, figuratively and literally. He is a project but that is exactly how I see Allen.

[hornbybrown]

4 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

lol Im less generous. I honestly think he is a 4rd round talent being projected in the top 5 based on his size. His actual play is that of a 6th rounder.

I see no difference in Josh Allen and Cardale Jones as prospects and Cardale went in the 4th with better collegiate stats against far better competiton.

 

I agree with this

[Iamcanadian]

Say what you want, Allen is likely the #2 QB in this draft, people have to remember, he played on a talentless team, his receivers stunk and rarely got any separation from those covering them and his OL was a sieve. Look, I agree, he is a boom or bust candidate, but if he booms, you have an Elway or a Jim Kelly on your hands and if he busts, well 80% of all QB's drafted in the top 12 do anyway, so the odds do not favour any of the QB's in the discussion, to go top 5!!!

Every QB in a draft has red flags, they all do, for Darnold, it is his tendency to get sloppy with the ball, for Rosen, it is his immobility which led to 2 concussions and a rotary cuff injury to his shoulder and Mayfield, who is too short for the position and has some maturity issues. Shortness has a 6% chance for success, so how serious is that???

But only Allen has a ceiling that is top of the heap and while his red flags may seem dangerous, remember Jim Kelly went #14 in the draft and was full of red flags, that's what you get with a 14th pick QB.

If I am a GM and I cannot get Darnold who appears to have the least serious flaws, I want Allen who potentially at least, could be the best QB to enter the league in a decade. Remember Marino had around 5 QB's drafted in round 1 ahead of him and went near the end of round 1, so you can imagine the red flags he was carrying!!!

After all, they say at least, that a lot of Allen's problems beside available talent on his team, is his mechanics and that is a fixable problem !!!

At least in Beane, I feel Buffalo has a top end GM and I am prepared to accept his judgement on this call and of course, 2 other teams, the Giants and the Jets may get to decide the QB of their future by who they pick, but make no mistake about it, Allen is not a 2nd or 3rd round prospect, he is for this draft at least, a top 5 pick!!!???

Fortunately, we get to draft Darnold who has an excellent ceiling and the least amount of red flags!!!

[DizzyDean]

29 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

Say what you want, Allen is likely the #2 QB in this draft, people have to remember, he played on a talentless team, his receivers stunk and rarely got any separation from those covering them and his OL was a sieve. Look, I agree, he is a boom or bust candidate, but if he booms, you have an Elway or a Jim Kelly on your hands and if he busts, well 80% of all QB's drafted in the top 12 do anyway, so the odds do not favour any of the QB's in the discussion, to go top 5!!!

Every QB in a draft has red flags, they all do, for Darnold, it is his tendency to get sloppy with the ball, for Rosen, it is his immobility which led to 2 concussions and a rotary cuff injury to his shoulder and Mayfield, who is too short for the position and has some maturity issues. Shortness has a 6% chance for success, so how serious is that???

But only Allen has a ceiling that is top of the heap and while his red flags may seem dangerous, remember Jim Kelly went #14 in the draft and was full of red flags, that's what you get with a 14th pick QB.

If I am a GM and I cannot get Darnold who appears to have the least serious flaws, I want Allen who potentially at least, could be the best QB to enter the league in a decade. Remember Marino had around 5 QB's drafted in round 1 ahead of him and went near the end of round 1, so you can imagine the red flags he was carrying!!!

After all, they say at least, that a lot of Allen's problems beside available talent on his team, is his mechanics and that is a fixable problem !!!

At least in Beane, I feel Buffalo has a top end GM and I am prepared to accept his judgement on this call and of course, 2 other teams, the Giants and the Jets may get to decide the QB of their future by who they pick, but make no mistake about it, Allen is not a 2nd or 3rd round prospect, he is for this draft at least, a top 5 pick!!!???

Fortunately, we get to draft Darnold who has an excellent ceiling and the least amount of red flags!!!

I don't at all agree with all of this, but overall, voice of reason.  People are literally calling for us to use the #1 pick in a draft that is probably the most loaded draft in a decade on a QB that has a ceiling of mid career Chad Pennington and a basement of Joey Harrington.  Think about that for a moment.  Allen may bust, if he had to start right away, chances are high that he would do that, however, we have Taylor, he will start this year, and ideally next year as well with a new contract before giving way to Allen (if we choose him).  I don't see the Jim Kelly or John Elway comparisons, but Allen has the potential to be a more mobile version of Ben Roethlisburger.  We have watched him pound us for a lot of years now.  I would kind of like to have that sort of talent on our side for a change, not to mention our OC is the same OC that got the very best out of Ben (even though they hated one another).  Darnold, well I am not even sure he is number 4 in this draft.  Jackson's potential is a Mike Vick type.  I would take a prime of his career Mike Vick over a mid career Chad Pennington any day of the week.  Granted, Darnold has a better chance of reaching his Chad Pennington ceiling than Jackson has of reaching his Mike Vick ceiling, but when that ceiling is mediocre at best, why on earth do you want to spend the first pick in the draft on it.  I hope that the Giants rumors are true and that we can do a mind frack on them and con them into trading up one spot to draft him.  Under no circumstances do I want Darnold at 1 though. I would prefer to not go QB at all and go with Chubb and Barkley with our first 2 picks than burn one on Mr. Mediocre.

[Iamcanadian]

8 minutes ago, DizzyDean said:

I don't at all agree with all of this, but overall, voice of reason.  People are literally calling for us to use the #1 pick in a draft that is probably the most loaded draft in a decade on a QB that has a ceiling of mid career Chad Pennington and a basement of Joey Harrington.  Think about that for a moment.  Allen may bust, if he had to start right away, chances are high that he would do that, however, we have Taylor, he will start this year, and ideally next year as well with a new contract before giving way to Allen (if we choose him).  I don't see the Jim Kelly or John Elway comparisons, but Allen has the potential to be a more mobile version of Ben Roethlisburger.  We have watched him pound us for a lot of years now.  I would kind of like to have that sort of talent on our side for a change, not to mention our OC is the same OC that got the very best out of Ben (even though they hated one another).  Darnold, well I am not even sure he is number 4 in this draft.  Jackson's potential is a Mike Vick type.  I would take a prime of his career Mike Vick over a mid career Chad Pennington any day of the week.  Granted, Darnold has a better chance of reaching his Chad Pennington ceiling than Jackson has of reaching his Mike Vick ceiling, but when that ceiling is mediocre at best, why on earth do you want to spend the first pick in the draft on it.  I hope that the Giants rumors are true and that we can do a mind frack on them and con them into trading up one spot to draft him.  Under no circumstances do I want Darnold at 1 though. I would prefer to not go QB at all and go with Chubb and Barkley with our first 2 picks than burn on on Mr. Mediocre.

I can absolutely guarantee you that if we draft Barkley and Chubb, we will remain an 8-8 team at best, for the next decade, too good to ever get another shot at a top QB and too QB desperate to ever compete for a SB!!! 

If that is what you will be satisfied with, then by all means we should follow your advice, but for me, I want a competitive team, a team capable of reaching the SB and that will only come when we get our franchise QB and IMO at least, we have a real shot to get him with the #1 overall pick in Darnold.

Even if he fails, it just means we will be back next year with a record that would enable us to draft next year's best qB, ditto for the following year, you just keep going till you get it right.

Indy drafted Jeff George #1 overall, who did zip for them, but eventually it got them Peyton because they didn't let failure keep them from drafting another QB at #1 overall, they just kept going on and on till they got it right and with that came 15 years of being competitive. Your method is a complete dead end, offering total mediocrity for the next decade and that is not what I want!!!! 

[DizzyDean]

44 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

I can absolutely guarantee you that if we draft Barkley and Chubb, we will remain an 8-8 team at best, for the next decade, too good to ever get another shot at a top QB and too QB desperate to ever compete for a SB!!! 

If that is what you will be satisfied with, then by all means we should follow your advice, but for me, I want a competitive team, a team capable of reaching the SB and that will only come when we get our franchise QB and IMO at least, we have a real shot to get him with the #1 overall pick in Darnold.

Even if he fails, it just means we will be back next year with a record that would enable us to draft next year's best qB, ditto for the following year, you just keep going till you get it right.

Indy drafted Jeff George #1 overall, who did zip for them, but eventually it got them Peyton because they didn't let failure keep them from drafting another QB at #1 overall, they just kept going on and on till they got it right and with that came 15 years of being competitive. Your method is a complete dead end, offering total mediocrity for the next decade and that is not what I want!!!! 

We have already done our tank mode for the last 2 years.  No thanks to that again, and no I never want to burn number one overall on mr. Mediocre.  That my friend is how you relegate the team to obscurity.  He won’t be an immediate bust, he will be mediocre and we will stick with him for way too long.  He will not give us even a shadow of what Taylor can, short and long term.  Taylor will be on par with Alex Smith for us in regards to what Smith did for the chiefs and is young enough to be with us 7 or 8 years if need be.  So yes, I take my chances with 2 all world prospects in Chubb and Barley and ride with Taylor in a heartbeat rather than take just one of them and ride with Mr. Mediocrity for the next at least 5 years.

[DizzyDean]

Oh, and so much for voice of reason, that certainly did not last long lol.

[DizzyDean]

Also, if you haven’t kept up with the nfl, guys like Derek Carr, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, that are drafted later and end up being studs are possible.  If Dorsey is worth his salt, he may find one if needed.  Unless of course you think we will be too good to draft high enough to get one in round two or very late in round one.