Joe Barry'd again

[MrBobGray]

19 hours ago, vegas492 said:

That is a good point.  Since they weren't even close, my guess is that it was by design, not incompetence.  But I freely admit that I could be wrong about that.

It's Cover-3 (more or less) and Savage is plenty deep, but the other receiver in the stacked set on that side (#84 Watson) is running vertically at him so he has to stay over the top.  Watson ends up bending his route towards Owens on the far side, but not until the ball is already out of Mahomes's hand.  Two receivers going deep means you can't really double cover both.  It's also worth noting that if Mahomes doesn't take this shot to MVS, Kelce is wide open crossing the middle; I'd much rather them try a deep shot to a covered MVS than take that away and give Mahomes time to notice where he should have gone with the ball.

[incognito_man]

10 hours ago, Packer_ESP said:

But what will keep you up at night is... what if it was designed incompetence?

gotta put that ish on film to make opponents prepare for it

wait til the playoffs

profit

 

Barry plays 4D chess

[incognito_man]

2 hours ago, packfanfb said:

Another reason why, no matter how the Packers finish this season, the right decision still remains that Barry should go (even though he probably won't). "Average" is his ceiling. 

the interesting numbers are the trends.

our defense sucked in the first half. Are we actually getting better (DVOA screams "yes"). So, the important question is...how and why are we getting better there? And, will we sustain it?

[incognito_man]

1 hour ago, MrBobGray said:

It's Cover-3 (more or less) and Savage is plenty deep, but the other receiver in the stacked set on that side (#84 Watson) is running vertically at him so he has to stay over the top.  Watson ends up bending his route towards Owens on the far side, but not until the ball is already out of Mahomes's hand.  Two receivers going deep means you can't really double cover both.  It's also worth noting that if Mahomes doesn't take this shot to MVS, Kelce is wide open crossing the middle; I'd much rather them try a deep shot to a covered MVS than take that away and give Mahomes time to notice where he should have gone with the ball.

this is good sentence that summarizes defensive goals. It's why great QBs are great and beat defenses regularly: can't cover up everything - can either (generally) choose between: forcing a really tight throw OR forcing a really quick throw

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, MrBobGray said:

It's Cover-3 (more or less) and Savage is plenty deep, but the other receiver in the stacked set on that side (#84 Watson) is running vertically at him so he has to stay over the top.  Watson ends up bending his route towards Owens on the far side, but not until the ball is already out of Mahomes's hand.  Two receivers going deep means you can't really double cover both.  It's also worth noting that if Mahomes doesn't take this shot to MVS, Kelce is wide open crossing the middle; I'd much rather them try a deep shot to a covered MVS than take that away and give Mahomes time to notice where he should have gone with the ball.

So, with 3 guys deep, hence cover 3, we should have had someone close enough to the play to at least be in the screen.  It isn't like it was a laser throw, there was air under it.

So...incompetence?

Do you have a link for the play?  I do not.  Because if Kelce is open and not deep, towards the middle of the field, I'd hope that is where we would want the ball to go.  Not 1:1 on something very close to the goalline.  Course, it was MVS.

 

[coachbuns]

1 hour ago, incognito_man said:

the interesting numbers are the trends.

our defense sucked in the first half. Are we actually getting better (DVOA screams "yes"). So, the important question is...how and why are we getting better there? And, will we sustain it?

I really believe none of it matters on Barry .. he's staying regardless.  MLF wanted a Vic Fangio style bend but don't break zone defense and he got it with Barry.  Until MLF decides to get a more aggressive defensive scheme, Barry stays.  It's going to take a late season collapse and/or playoff loss blame on the soft zone concept for MLF to change .. unfortunately.  Just not a fan of the soft crap zone stuff.

[MrBobGray]

7 hours ago, vegas492 said:

So, with 3 guys deep, hence cover 3, we should have had someone close enough to the play to at least be in the screen.  It isn't like it was a laser throw, there was air under it.

So...incompetence?

Do you have a link for the play?  I do not.  Because if Kelce is open and not deep, towards the middle of the field, I'd hope that is where we would want the ball to go.  Not 1:1 on something very close to the goalline.  Course, it was MVS.

 

Savage actually isn't far off screen, you see him get there as they're hitting the ground, the problem is MVS is real goddamn fast. Savage is no slouch himself, but no one's fast enough to stay over the top of a 4.45 guy in the middle of the field and still be part of the play over MVS running a vert.

[Refugee]

3 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

Savage actually isn't far off screen, you see him get there as they're hitting the ground, the problem is MVS is real goddamn fast. Savage is no slouch himself, but no one's fast enough to stay over the top of a 4.45 guy in the middle of the field and still be part of the play over MVS running a vert.

I haven’t watched the 22 but did see the safety come on at the end. Absolutely have to defend that from the end zone considering the situation and the personnel. We will never know if they could have gotten it in and score the 2pt if the DPI was called but I’m glad we never will have to. 

[coachbuns]

If there ever is a game where Barry should change his soft zone scheming and get aggressive is the upcoming Giants game.  Only real weapon the Giants have is Barkley so shut him down and put some serious heat on their QB.  Don't sit back waiting for a 3rd string qb to get comfortable dinking and dunking .. that's their only chance in the passing game.  Get after him .. knock the crap out of him.  GB offense score early, no turnovers, defense play aggressive and roll them.

Edited December 9, 2023 by coachbuns

[vegas492]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:58 PM, MrBobGray said:

Savage actually isn't far off screen, you see him get there as they're hitting the ground, the problem is MVS is real goddamn fast. Savage is no slouch himself, but no one's fast enough to stay over the top of a 4.45 guy in the middle of the field and still be part of the play over MVS running a vert.

I disagree.  Not about MVS being fast, he is.

But in that situation, safeties are taught to be the deepest on the field.  You play forward.  At least that is how I recall a deep safety.

And Savage can certainly run with MVS, let alone when he's the deep safety seeing it all happen.

For an example, when we played, and I was quite young, I was told to throw the ball as far as I could on a few plays.  It didn't matter if the ball was complete or not.  The safeties in our defense that week were not supposed to let the ball touch the ground without them getting a hand on it.

And I'll bet that is how teams prepare for Hill today.  If you can overthrow the defense, it's a TD for Hill.

Now, about that play?  I haven't seen the replay.  Maybe there was more window dressing that caught Savage's eye.  

And in that situation, it should not have caught his eye versus a tall speed receiver getting behind everyone.

Comes back to this.  Savage is a poor deep safety.

[MrBobGray]

8 hours ago, vegas492 said:

I disagree.  Not about MVS being fast, he is.

But in that situation, safeties are taught to be the deepest on the field.  You play forward.  At least that is how I recall a deep safety.

And Savage can certainly run with MVS, let alone when he's the deep safety seeing it all happen.

For an example, when we played, and I was quite young, I was told to throw the ball as far as I could on a few plays.  It didn't matter if the ball was complete or not.  The safeties in our defense that week were not supposed to let the ball touch the ground without them getting a hand on it.

And I'll bet that is how teams prepare for Hill today.  If you can overthrow the defense, it's a TD for Hill.

Now, about that play?  I haven't seen the replay.  Maybe there was more window dressing that caught Savage's eye.  

And in that situation, it should not have caught his eye versus a tall speed receiver getting behind everyone.

Comes back to this.  Savage is a poor deep safety.

Well let's start by noting that there's no such thing as 'safety play'; a safety plays the role assigned to him same as every player.  You can have a safety rush the passer, but they're still a safety, as an example.  So rather than critique an abstracted general case, let's instead look at what the called coverage is and what that's asking Savage to do.

The Packers are in a Cover-3 shell with Owens responsible for the defensive right third, Savage in the middle third, and Valentine taking the defensive left third.  From defensive right to left, you've got Ballentine-Campbell-Walker-Nixon as the second level guys.  The Chiefs come out with 12 personnel with both receivers in a stacked set on the defensive left and the TEs playing slot and split end (Kelce is split end), and the RB next to Mahomes in shotgun.  At the snap you've got 83 chipping and the RB staying in to pass block, so this is now a faux max-protect scheme with three routes, with both extra blockers leaking out after helping out to create check down options.  Given the alignment and situation here, this play is very clearly designed to attack the deep coverage with your receivers - lining your TEs and your receivers on opposite sides forces some degree of tell about the level of man vs zone pre-snap, and seven blockers tells you they want to give this time to develop if at all possible. 

MVS and Watson are the receivers going deep, and they start in a stacked set as mentioned.  At the snap, MVS immediately goes vertical with a slight drift to the boundary and Watson takes off at an angle right at Savage.  Nixon runs with Watson deep, Valentine takes MVS.  Savage is playing deep middle and his primary concern is Watson - Nixon is running with him but he's in trail and Watson has a lot of space in front of him to work with.  Meanwhile, Valentine is playing deep third so he's got leverage on MVS and is able to play this from an upfield position.  There's three defenders for two receivers, so someone's gonna get single coverage, and the the formation/alignment mean it's going to be MVS; Savage can't drop coverage on a guy running vertically through his zone.  But it's worth noting that MVS is absolutely not 'behind everyone'; Valentine is stride for stride with him through his whole route.  You might like to have two defenders on him in this situation, but you can't double cover every receiver going vertical, and you still have Kelce on the other side to worry about.

[{Family Ghost}]

Big game for Barry tonight.  If he stinks it up he will be right back on the top of everyone's shat list. 

[MacReady]

We’ve held offenses under 24 points for X amount of weeks in a row, and we also do a really good job of always allowing as close as we can get to that many points.

Even when we play against Danny Devito’s nephew.

Barry apologists are dumb.

[Malfatron]

This one was bad

[Packerraymond]

FIRE JOE BARRY FOR ****S SAKE